[Coral-List] Subject: Overfishing contributing to ocean acidification?
Tim Wijgerde
t.wijgerde at coralscience.org
Fri Jan 23 06:46:11 EST 2009
Hi Alina,
thank you for your comments. I also understood from
the paper that the scientists indeed presented their results as crucial
new insights into the carbon cycle, and not as the key to healthy and
strong reefs. My comments were more about the science journalist's
comments about fish and their benefit to main TA/arag sat state.
Best
Tim
coralscience.org
(Mozilla FF opt)
Op Do, 22 januari, 2009 23:05, schreef Szmant, Alina:
> Hi Tim:
>
> You are correct. The authors do not
claim that fish are a solution to
> ocean acification, but rather
that they will contribute to calcium
> carbonate production (with
some/much of it ending up in deep ocean).
> These folks are not
coral reefers, but carbonate mass balance researchers
> (at least
Frank Millero) and thus they are considering fish calcification
>
as replacing a postulated loss of oceanic calcification by
phytoplankton
> (but see Iglesias-Rodriguez 2008 in Science). It
would appear that with
> all the hype about ocean acidification, a
much mis-understood process,
> some people have jumped to
mis-informed conclusions. Further, while I am
> not expert of
'gut rocks' and admit to not having heard about them before
> now,
I do question that all the data about there production came from two
> benthic fishes. To assume that all fishes in the sea, from
sardines on up
> will produce thse secretions in a similar way
seems to me a stretch...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Alina Szmant
>
>
*******************************************************************
> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
> Coral Reef Research Group
>
UNCW-Center for Marine Science
> 5600 Marvin K. Moss Ln
>
Wilmington NC 28409
> Tel: (910)962-2362 & Fax:
(910)962-2410
> Cell: (910)200-3913
> email:
szmanta at uncw.edu
> Web Page: http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
>
******************************************************************
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Tim
Wijgerde
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:45 PM
> To:
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List]
Subject: Overfishing contributing to ocean
> acidification?
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>
this is an interesting paper!
> The article by Catherine is
optimistic in this part:
>
> Because fish carbonate
> production goes up with temperature, fish are likely to produce
more
> carbonate - and be more effective
> buffers
> of ocean acidity
> - as temperatures increase through
global warming.
>
> , but isn't something overlooked?
>
> Yes, higher T and higher oceanic CO2 levels will indeed
increase
> carbonate
> production by fish, but also H+
excretion (from the
> paper):
> HCO3 − ions
secreted by intestinal cells
> into the intestinal lumen of fish
are derived largely from metabolic CO2
> reacting with water [...]
This reaction produces H+, which is exported
> into the blood and
ultimately excreted into the external seawater via
>
ion-transporting cells in the gills of fish.
>
> So, the
more
> carbonates fish excrete into the water, the more H+ (acidic
particles if
> you will) are excreted at the same time! This
negates the increase in
> aragonate saturation state, as the H+
ions will decrease it at the same
> time. I just quickly browsed
through the paper (will read it better
> later), but it seems that
TA will increase in deeper waters, as more CaCO3
> dissolves, but
TA in shallow waters may decrease due to the H+ production.
>
Won't these two factors eventually cancel out one another?
>
> Best,
>
> Tim Wijgerde
>
>
>
> Op Do, 22 januari,
> 2009 18:00, schreef
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>> 2. Re: Over fishing
> contributing to ocean
acidification? (John Ware)
>> 3. COTs are
> not in
Dubai, UAE (John Burt)
>>
>>
>>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009
08:36:54
> -0500
>> From: Georgina Bustamante
>
<gbustamante at bellsouth.net> (via Lew Gramer)
>>
Subject:
> [Coral-List] Invitation to professionals interested
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>>
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> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009
08:56:43 -0500
>> From: John Ware
>
<jware at erols.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Over
fishing
> contributing to ocean
>>
acidification?
>> To: Douglas
> Fenner
<dfenner at blueskynet.as>
>> Cc:
>
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov, Gene Shinn
>
<eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>
<49787B1B.4080609 at erols.com>
>> Content-Type:
text/plain;
> charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>>
>> Doug et al.
>>
>
>> In the far
distant past (1992) a paper appeared in Coral
> Reefs
>> describing the process by which the deposition of CaCO3 by
> corals
>> increases pCO2 in the water and decreases pH
(increases
> acidity).
>>
>> Ware, Smith,
Reaka-Kudla: Coral reefs:
> sources or sinks of atmospheric
>> CO2? Coral Reefs 11:127-130.
>>
>> This
was published at a time when some coral reef
> scientists were
>> claiming that coral reefs were SINKS of CO2 -
> after
all, look at all
>> that CO3 stuff. In fact, one reviewer,
a
> geologist, questioned the
>> utility of the paper
because
> "everyone knows that the deposition of
>> CaCO3 in water is a
> source of atmospheric
CO2".
>>
>> John
>>
>>
Douglas Fenner wrote:
>>
>>>Gene,
>>>
> I thought that the chemistry was that when
corals secrete a skeleton,
>>>they put more CO2 into
solution in the water, which actually
> makes the
>>> water
>>>more acid. If fish solidify
> calcium carbonate, the same chemistry would
>>>have
to apply,
> wouldn't it?? Would reverse as the calcium
carbonate
>>>
> later
>>>dissolved.
But I'm no chemist. (and I'm not defending
> overfishing!)
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From:
"Gene
> Shinn" <eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>>>To:
> <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>>>Sent: Monday, January
> 19, 2009 4:48 AM
>>>Subject: [Coral-List] Over fishing
> contributing to
ocean acidification?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>An interesting
article about an
> article published in Science. Gene
>>>>
>>>>Fish
> an ally against
climate change
>>>>
>>>> *
>
New Scientist 13:02 16 January 2009 by Catherine Brahic
>>>>
>>>>An unlikely ally may have been
found in
> the fight against the effects
>>>>of
climate change. Fish
> excretions seem to play a key role in
>>>>maintaining the
> ocean's delicate pH balance,
says a study that also
>>>>reveals that there are 2
billion tonnes of fish in the
> world's oceans.
>>>>
>>>>Bony fish excrete lumps
>
of calcium carbonate, known as "gut rocks"
>>>>which are thought to dissolve in the upper layers of
the
> ocean. A
>>>>team led by Rod Wilson of the
University of
> Exeter in the UK has now
>>>>shown that the sheer amount of
> gut rocks
produced plays a key role in
>>>>buffering the
>
carbon dioxide that acidifies seawater.
>>>>
>>>>"This study really is the first glimpse of the
huge
> impact fish have
>>>>on our carbon cycle -
and why we need
> them in the ocean," says
>>>>Wilson's colleague Villy
> Christensen of the
University of British
>>>>Columbia in
>
Canada.
>>>>
>>>>Protective role
>>>>
>>>>While marine biologists have known
for
> some time that fish produce
>>>>gut rocks,
until now no-one
> had estimated just how much calcium
>>>>carbonate is spewed
> out into the ocean in this
way.
>>>>
>>>>It was
> widely
believed that most marine carbonate is provided by the
>>>>external skeletons of marine plankton. These
microscopic
> organisms
>>>>are likely to be hard
hit as climate change
> increases the acidity of
>>>>the oceans and their skeletons
> literally
dissolve away.
>>>>
>>>>The new study
> reveals that fish play an important role in stopping
>>>>this
> from happening.
>>>>ferent models to estimate the amount of
> fish
biomass that is in the
>>>>global oceans, and its
> distribution.
>>>>
>>>>By
drinking salt water,
> fish ingest a lot of calcium, and they
>>>>excrete more or
> less calcium carbonate
depending on their size and
>>>>the
> temperature
of the water. "For a given total mass of fish,
>>>>smaller fish produce more than bigger fish, and fish
at
> higher
>>>>temperatures produce more than
fish at lower
> temperatures," explains
>>>>Wilson.
>>>>
>>>>Surprise finding
>>>>
>>>>The team
> then used data on how much carbonate
fish produce on average
>>>>to calculate how much the
fish biomass represented in their
> computer
>>>>models are likely to excrete.
>>>>
>>>>This revealed that between 3% and 15% of
> all
the calcium carbonate
>>>>produced in the oceans comes
> from fish. Wilson says this is a
>>>>conservative
estimate -
> he and his team think the real figure could
>>>>be three
> times higher.
>>>>
>>>>"I expect it will be
> a big surprise to most of the ocean scientists
>>>>who study
> the ocean carbon cycle," says
Wilson. "Apart from a handful
>>>>of fish biologists
around the world, the scientific
> community were
>>>>previously unaware that fish produce of
> any of
this chalky mineral,
>>>>let alone enough to be
>
significant on a global scale."
>>>>
>>>>Eric Achterberg of the National Oceanography Centre
in
> Southampton,
>>>>UK, says the study offers
an insight into an
> underrepresented marine
>>>>process. "Whether the fish
> carbonate is
really an important
>>>>contribution to the
>
mid-water alkalinity is not certain yet and forms
>>>>an
> excellent topic of research," he
says.
>>>>
>>>>'Unrecognised allies'
>>>>
>>>>Wilson agrees that it is not yet
certain whether the gut
> rocks do
>>>>indeed
dissolve in the upper layers of the
> ocean. Their chemical
>>>>structure suggests that they are
> very soluble
in seawater and should
>>>>readily dissolve. But
> if future studies show this does not happen,
>>>>this will
> mean the gut rocks sink to the
bottom of the ocean without
>>>>dissolving and buffering
the oceans.
>>>>
>>>>Because fish
carbonate production goes up with temperature,
> fish are
>>>>likely to produce more carbonate - and be more
>
effective buffers of
>>>>ocean acidity - as
temperatures
> increase through global warming.
>>>>That's the good news.
> The bad news is that
overfishing may have an
>>>>additional
>
downside: in addition to depleting food stocks, it could
>>>>also deplete the precious carbonate buffer.
>>>>
>>>>Because of the complexity of
ocean
> chemistry, "we cannot really say
>>>>much with any
> confidence about how overfishing
might affect ocean
>>>>acidification says Wilson.
"But we definitely need to
> study this more
>>>>to help make better predictions about
> these
future changes."
>>>>
>>>>"We
> must buck the current trend of
clear-cutting of the oceans and
>>>>foster these
unrecognised allies against climate
> change," says
>>>>Christensen.
>>>>
>>>>Journal reference: Science (DOI:
10.1126/science.1157972)
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No Rocks, No
Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
>>>>------------------------------------
>
-----------------------------------
>>>>E. A. Shinn,
Courtesy
> Professor
>>>>University of South
Florida
>>>>Marine Science Center (room 204)
>>>>140
> Seventh Avenue South
>>>>St. Petersburg, FL 33701
>>>><eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>>>>Tel
727
> 553-1158----------------------------------
>>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Coral-List mailing list
>>>>Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>>>http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No
> virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG.
>>>>Version: 7.5.552 /
Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release
> Date:
>>>> 1/18/2009
>>>>12:11 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Coral-List mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 22
Jan 2009 18:18:22 +0400
>> From:
> "John
Burt" <John.Burt at zu.ac.ae>
>> Subject:
>
[Coral-List] COTs are not in Dubai, UAE
>> To:
>
<coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> Message-ID:
>
<4978B860.CDD2.00C8.0 at zu.ac.ae>
>> Content-Type:
text/plain;
> charset=US-ASCII
>>
>>
>> Iain, Yusef, Kaveh,
>>
>> I have been
diving approx. bi-weekly in Dubai since 2005
> and have not
>> observed a single COT on reefs in the area, nor on
>
coral encrusted
>> breakwaters. I would imagine that the
sizzling
> summer temperatures or the
>> salinity are
keeping them out from
> establishing in the area. They can
>> undoubtedly get here via
> ballast water or
dispersal.
>>
>> John Burt
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
> REGARDING Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 21 Jan
2009 04:42:35 -0800
> (PST)
>> From: Kaveh Samimi
<kaveh_s_n at yahoo.com>
>>
> Subject: Re:
[Coral-List] COT current status
>> To:
>
dr_iamacdonald at yahoo.co.uk, Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>
> Message-ID:
<168073.78690.qm at web53107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Dear
> Iain,
>>
>> As far as I
know this is the only?observation
> of COT?at Iranian side of
>> the Gulf.
>>
>> Price
> ARG,
Rezai H (1996) New echinoderm records for the Gulf including
>>
crown of thorns starfish, Acanthaster planci (Linnaeus) and
>
their
>> biogeographical significance. Fauna of Saudi Arabia
(15):
> 386-390
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
Kaveh
>>
>>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
------------------------------
>>
>>
>
_______________________________________________
>>
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>>
>> End of Coral-List Digest, Vol 5, Issue 24
>>
> *****************************************
>>
>
>
> Tim
> Wijgerde, M.Sc.
> CEO Coral
Publications
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