[Coral-List] Sea Angels or Mermaids

Peter Edwards horlicks_1989 at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 23 13:37:45 EST 2009


Thank you David

For your insightful and balanced response.
Some of us me are nurturers too.  
Yes we need to be careful of sweeping generalizations based on gender.

Peter
++++++++++++++++++++
Peter E.T. Edwards PhD
Natural Resource Economist
IM Systems Group and NOAA Marine Fisheries Service


Message: 5
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:09:37 -0500
From: "David M. Lawrence" <dave at fuzzo.com>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Message-ID: <4B0A97A1.2030809 at fuzzo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I would be VERY careful in making sweeping generalizations on the 
differing NATURE of men and women.  Culture plays a significant role. 
Where I grew up -- in Louisiana -- girls whose fathers (or mothers) took 
them hunting and fishing grew up into women who enjoyed hunting and 
fishing as much as any boy who had the same opportunity.

And remember that in some (not all) Native American groups, the men 
might have been the warriors, but the women had the honor of torturing 
any captives.

There are enough exceptions to the women = nuturing nature/men = 
dominating nature to call the NATURE part of it in question.  (And 
frankly, if it is NATURE, there is little hope of improving conditions 
on the planet we live in.

Now, if the difference has more to do with CULTURE, I see hope in 
changing things for the better through education and persuasion.

As for Ruthven's original question, there was a time not so long ago 
that women had no place in science.  My late, great, and sorely missed 
friend Marie Tharp, for example, was put to work as drafting maps and 
graphics for male graduate students who were working on their master's 
degree when she already had two -- she was forbidden time on ship, for 
that was allegedly no place for a woman.  Funny, though, that she 
discovered the Mid-Atlantic Ridge when plotting sounding data and 
touched off what became the plate tectonic revolution.

Girls -- even today -- are discouraged from pursuing courses, much less 
careers, in science and math.  Too many parents are content to have some 
jackass teacher or school administrator tell them that girls have no 
aptitude for such weighty stuff.  And too many men still have the Abbie 
Hoffman attitude: when asked what was the position of women in the 
Yippie (60s protest) movement, he answered "Horizontal."

Things are much, much better, but the legacy of the generation that felt 
women had no place in science, or at sea, still has a strong influence.

Dave

P.S. My wife got her biology degree from Clarkson in 1983.  Back then, 
Clarkson was referred to as a place "Where the men are men and the women 
are, too."  I don't know how much, if any, that attitude has changed...

Monika Franck wrote:
> Hi John
> 
>
Perhaps its because most women have a conscientious,caring and
conserving nature while most men have a destructive and conquering
nature.  
> 
> Interesting that you mention this now too
as one of my lecturers recently also pointed out something similar to
your observation. He said that women are conspicuous by their absence
in participation in hunting/fishing expeditions, hunting photographs
and hunting competitions.  You find men in these hunting expeditions
and photographs absolutely beaming with pride of having killed often
not just one for the pot but an entire wasteful heap of whatever
creature was unfortunate enough to cross the path of the thrill of the
kill that day. Often creatures that are not even good to eat are
wastefully killed or exploited for fun without thought of how this
affects the rest of nature and our future as humans on this planet.
> 
>
The ocean is one of the last natural frontiers that we still understand
little of with regards to how it regulates our climate, and from which
humans still catch tons of wild food, fast getting depleted though as
per other natural resource on this planet stressing under over
populatain by humans. The ocean is at great risk and conserving and
studying it perhaps appeals to the caring and conserving nature of
women more than the destructive and conquering nature of men.

 Perhaps you should call your series "Mermaids"?
 
 best wishes
 Monika  

-- 
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"No trespassing
  4/17 of a haiku"  --  Richard Brautigan





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:15:55 -0500
From: "Monika Franck" <monikafranck at email.com>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
To: "John Ruthven" <John at hiddenpictures.co.uk>,
    coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Message-ID: <20091122101555.1A22983985 at ws1-2a.us4.outblaze.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi John

Perhaps its because most women have a conscientious,caring and conserving nature while most men have a destructive and conquering nature.  

Interesting that you mention this now too as one of my lecturers recently also pointed out something similar to your observation. He said that women are conspicuous by their absence in participation in hunting/fishing expeditions, hunting photographs and hunting competitions.  You find men in these hunting expeditions and photographs absolutely beaming with pride of having killed often not just one for the pot but an entire wasteful heap of whatever creature was unfortunate enough to cross the path of the thrill of the kill that day. Often creatures that are not even good to eat are wastefully killed or exploited for fun without thought of how this affects the rest of nature and our future as humans on this planet.

The ocean is one of the last natural frontiers that we still understand little of with regards to how it regulates our climate, and from which humans still catch tons of wild food, fast getting depleted though as per other natural resource on this planet stressing under over populatain by humans. The ocean is at great risk and conserving and studying it perhaps appeals to the caring and conserving nature of women more than the destructive and conquering nature of men.

Perhaps you should call your series "Mermaids"?

best wishes
Monika  

 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ruthven" <John at hiddenpictures.co.uk>
> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:09:15 +0000
> 
> 
> I was very interested to read Alina Szmant's post about women in marine
> biology. I am a scientist turned programme maker working on shows for
> Discovery, BBC and National Geographic, among others.
> 
> I have recently been wondering about whether there is a series (working
> title "Sea Angels") about the famous women who work in marine biology. I
> have been working on underwater films e.g.BBC's Blue Planet, for about
> twenty years and have noticed that many of the prominent scientists in
> marine biology are female, or at the very least there is a greater
> percentage of women working in the field than say chemistry or engineering.
> Perhaps not surprising you may think, but there are other areas of biology
> where the prominent researchers are female too e.g. primate research.
> 
> Do you think my perception is incorrect? Does it have any significance and
> are there indications of why there might be a connection between being
> female and having an interest in the sea?  Why do many languages seem to
> think of the sea as female for that matter? (e.g. French: La Mere).
> 
> This does not of course have a direct relevance to Coral, but it is
> important to understand the perspectives which people bring to research and
> how that influences our view of the world in everything from nuclear physics
> to coral research.
> 
> 
> John Ruthven
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list

>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:15:53 +1000
From: "Chris Bone" <chris at oceanswatch.org>
Subject: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
To: <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <3C8AB3A3E57743B886D792DCDDBD96E4 at ChrisPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

I run www.oceanswatch.org 90% of the marine biologists that apply to 
volunteer with us are female. I also live in an eco-village where 90% of the 
"work for board to learn" volunteers are also female. I think it is because 
women care far more for the planet than most men do. Men are far more 
concerned with earning money!

Chris Bone 






------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:02:50 +0100
From: "Hillyer, K (Katherine)" <k.hillyer at royalhaskoning.com>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
To: Monika Franck <monikafranck at email.com>, John Ruthven
    <John at hiddenpictures.co.uk>, "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov"
    <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Message-ID:
    <B23261BF4088F446B91B3BD0703CCD6688C887EE7A at EXCHANGE-MBX.corporateroot.net>
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

John et al. 

I have been following this discussion with interest. I believe like vessels of the sea, the sea is referred to in the feminine tense as it is considered a thing of beauty (although in Spanish and Welsh it is actually masculine!) 

Perhaps, a major simplification (as I am, after all a marine scientist), but human behaviour as I understand it, is governed very much by our hormones as well as our genes; testosterone producing command and conquer attributes and oestrogen, caring and mothering. Perhaps unsurprising then, that women are suited to conservation roles that require patient observation and research, whist men are often suited to director-style roles (although I know of many excellent and prominent male marine biologists and conservationists). 

Or maybe us girls just like 'saving the dolphins' ;)

Katie


"The birds have a harder life than we do except for the robber birds and the heavy strong ones. Why did they make the birds so delicate and fine as those sea swallows when the ocean can be so cruel? She is very kind and beautiful. But she can be so cruel and it comes so suddenly and such birds that fly, dipping and hunting, with their small sad voices are made too delicately for the sea." 

Hemmingway, The Old Man and the Sea.


K.E. Hillyer BSc (Hons) AIEEM
 
Marine Environmental Scientist



 
 
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-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Monika Franck
Sent: 22 November 2009 10:16
To: John Ruthven; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Sea Angels

Hi John

Perhaps its because most women have a conscientious,caring and conserving nature while most men have a destructive and conquering nature.  

Interesting that you mention this now too as one of my lecturers recently also pointed out something similar to your observation. He said that women are conspicuous by their absence in participation in hunting/fishing expeditions, hunting photographs and hunting competitions.  You find men in these hunting expeditions and photographs absolutely beaming with pride of having killed often not just one for the pot but an entire wasteful heap of whatever creature was unfortunate enough to cross the path of the thrill of the kill that day. Often creatures that are not even good to eat are wastefully killed or exploited for fun without thought of how this affects the rest of nature and our future as humans on this planet.

The ocean is one of the last natural frontiers that we still understand little of with regards to how it regulates our climate, and from which humans still catch tons of wild food, fast getting depleted though as per other natural resource on this planet stressing under over populatain by humans.. The ocean is at great risk and conserving and studying it perhaps appeals to the caring and conserving nature of women more than the destructive and conquering nature of men.

Perhaps you should call your series "Mermaids"?

best wishes
Monika  

 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ruthven" <John at hiddenpictures.co.uk>
> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: [Coral-List] Sea Angels
> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:09:15 +0000
> 
> 
> I was very interested to read Alina Szmant's post about women in marine
> biology. I am a scientist turned programme maker working on shows for
> Discovery, BBC and National Geographic, among others.
> 
> I have recently been wondering about whether there is a series (working
> title "Sea Angels") about the famous women who work in marine biology. I
> have been working on underwater films e.g.BBC's Blue Planet, for about
> twenty years and have noticed that many of the prominent scientists in
> marine biology are female, or at the very least there is a greater
> percentage of women working in the field than say chemistry or engineering.
> Perhaps not surprising you may think, but there are other areas of biology
> where the prominent researchers are female too e.g. primate research.
> 
> Do you think my perception is incorrect? Does it have any significance and
> are there indications of why there might be a connection between being
> female and having an interest in the sea?  Why do many languages seem to
> think of the sea as female for that matter? (e.g. French: La Mere).
> 
> This does not of course have a direct relevance to Coral, but it is
> important to understand the perspectives which people bring to research and
> how that influences our view of the world in everything from nuclear physics
> to coral research.
> 
> 
> John Ruthven
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list

>

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