[Coral-List] Need for more oil

Ed Blume eblume2702 at gmail.com
Wed May 19 16:08:52 EDT 2010


Excuse my typo, please.  The U.S. has enough flat *ROOF* space to generate
more than 4 times its current electricity demand.

Ed Blume
www.renewwisconsin.org


On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Bill Allison <allison.billiam at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thats a good thing because this weeks economist (I am pretty sure is where
> I heard it) reckons the US is fortunate to have the space to support another
> 100 million peeps (and so accommodate economic growth) and still be much
> less densely populated than the UK. Do prairie chickens like living under
> solar panels Daphne?
>
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Ed Blume <eblume2702 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've seen estimates that the U.S. has enough flat rough space to produce
>> four times our current electricity need from solar.  If I can dig out one
>> of
>> the estimates, I'll post it.
>>
>> Lifestyle changes are certainly out best options, but you know what Cheney
>> said, "Our lifestyle is non-negotiable."
>>
>> Ed Blume
>> www.renewwisconsin.org
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, fautin at ku.edu <fautin at ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > In addition to being a coral reef biologist, I am a long-time
>> bird-watcher
>> > (not birder, with its connotations of competitiveness).  I was dismayed
>> to
>> > learn recently that prairie chickens do not nest within an amazingly
>> large
>> > distance from power lines (I was not amazed to learn they also avoid
>> > buildings).  Thus, even if what is left of US midwest grasslands are
>> > otherwise fairly undisturbed, if there is a power line within sight, you
>> > are unlikely to see those birds.  And, as Doug says, to get power from
>> > where there is abundant wind or sun but few people to where the people
>> > live requires such lines.  Common when I was a child, prairie chickens
>> are
>> > now nearly gone.  I do not know what they see, hear, or feel -- but it
>> is
>> > clear they perceive something.  The old question is whether we are
>> willing
>> > to forego air conditioners or microwave ovens, etc. to prevent the
>> > extirpation of prairie chickens (and who knows what else?).  And that is
>> > where we can see and easily count -- compared to in the sea.
>> >
>> >
>> > Daphne G. Fautin
>> > Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
>> > Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
>> > Haworth Hall
>> > University of Kansas
>> > 1200 Sunnyside Avenue
>> > Lawrence, Kansas 66045-7534  USA
>> >
>> > telephone 1-785-864-3062
>> > fax 1-785-864-5321
>> > evo user name fautin
>> > website www.nhm.ku.edu/~inverts
>> >
>> >       direct to database of hexacorals, including sea anemones
>> >               newest version released 1 December 2009
>> >         ***http://hercules.kgs.ku.edu/Hexacoral/Anemone2***
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 18 May 2010, Douglas Fenner wrote:
>> >
>> > > I agree, to my knowledge not a single fossil fuel plant in the world
>> > manages
>> > > to sequester the carbon it produces yet (but maybe there are ones I
>> don't
>> > > know about).  One or two that were planned in the US were canceled, I
>> > > believe, maybe due to high costs or technical problems, I don't know.
>> > >      As for visual pollution by wind turbines, well I tend to think
>> > beauty
>> > > is in the eye of the beholder.  I suspect that anyone making a lot of
>> > money
>> > > in the oil industry thinks an oil refinery looks beautiful (gas flares
>> > > burning at night, all those lights on towers, kind of romantic way to
>> > read
>> > > your profit checks by?).  Really, it does change your perspective,
>> those
>> > > that may make profits from windmills won't have much sympathy for
>> those
>> > that
>> > > want the unspoiled natural beauty.  That is, the natural beauty of
>> amber
>> > > waves of grain and green fields of corn, which totally replaced the
>> North
>> > > American prairie, an ecosystem that was totally obliterated by white
>> > > settlers, with only minute scraps of it left in a few places (and a
>> fair
>> > bit
>> > > on the western edge where it is too dry to farm, so cattle are run on
>> it
>> > > instead of the bison that were killed to starve the Native Americans
>> off
>> > the
>> > > plains so whites could take the land.)  Likely those farms look
>> beautiful
>> > to
>> > > those who make a good living off them.  (By the way, I'm a U.S.
>> citizen,
>> > one
>> > > who hopes coral reefs won't be obliterated like the prairies were.)
>> > >      As for space for solar, there is vastly more space in the US
>> > southwest
>> > > deserts for solar instalations than ever will be needed.  And in
>> Germany
>> > > farmers have solar collectors all over their fields, and make money
>> off
>> > the
>> > > cows feeding underneath them on the grass as well as the solar.  You
>> can
>> > do
>> > > both easily.  There is plenty of room.  More of a problem is that the
>> > desert
>> > > southwest is too far from the populous US east coast markets, and most
>> of
>> > > the energy would be lost in the electric lines.  But for Phoenix,
>> > Arizona, a
>> > > low-tech solar electric plant was cheaper and quicker to build than
>> any
>> > > other kind of plant, and provides electricity best during peak demand,
>> on
>> > > hot sunny days when everyone has their air conditioner on.  Australia
>> and
>> > > North Africa have enough desert for solar plants to power much of the
>> > world,
>> > > the problem is not space, it is distance from markets.
>> > >     There are great technical hurdles, indeed.  But as JFK said "We
>> > choose
>> > > to go to the moon not because it is easy, but because it is
>> difficult."
>> >  If
>> > > the alternative is to let climate change cause massive damage around
>> the
>> > > world (like when Greenland melts and oceans drown many of the worlds
>> > largest
>> > > cities which are on coasts, or we have to put dikes around them all
>> and
>> > huge
>> > > pumps like New Orleans and hope Hurricane Katrina doesn't hit.
>>  Estimates
>> > of
>> > > when Greenland will melt vary widely, I believe, and it's likely to be
>> > > hundreds of years or more.), should we be looking for excuses to not
>> > solve
>> > > the problems, or for ways to solve the problems???
>> > >          Doug
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Quenton Dokken" <qdokken at gulfmex.org>
>> > > To: "'Eugene Shinn'" <eshinn at marine.usf.edu>;
>> > > <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:20 AM
>> > > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Need for more oil
>> > >
>> > >> Strong commentary Gene.  We must also deal with the issue of visual
>> > >> pollution by wind turbines and space allocations for solar.  We seem
>> to
>> > be
>> > >> caught between a rock and a hard place.
>> > >>
>> > >> Quenton
>> > >>
>> > >> Quenton Dokken, Ph.D.
>> > >> Executive Director
>> > >> Gulf of Mexico Foundation, Inc.
>> > >> PMB 51 5403 Everhart Rd.
>> > >> Corpus Christi, TX 78411
>> > >>
>> > >> Office:  3833 South Staples Suite S214
>> > >>                Corpus Christi, TX 78411
>> > >>
>> > >> 361-882-3939 o
>> > >> 361-882-1262 f
>> > >> 361-442-6064 c
>> > >>
>> > >> www.gulfmex.org
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> > >> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Eugene
>> > Shinn
>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:01 AM
>> > >> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> > >> Subject: [Coral-List] Need for more oil
>> > >>
>> > >>> Dear Listers who wish to end oil use.  An interesting article  was
>> > >>> published recently in the NYTimes titled  "A Bad Bet On Carbon." The
>> > >>> article lists a number of problems with Co2 sequestration but the
>> > >>> significant one had to do with scale. Here is the direct quote.
>> > >>> "The third, and most vexing, problem has to do with scale. In 2009,
>> > >>> carbon dioxide emissions in the United States totaled 5.4 billion
>> > >>> tons. Lets assume that policymakers want to use carbon capture to
>> > >>> get rid of half of those emissions---say 3 billion tons per year.
>> > >>> That works out to about 8.2 million tons of carbon dioxide per day,
>> > >>> which would have to be collected and compressed to about 1,000 psi
>> > >>> (that compressed volume of carbon dioxide would be roughly
>> > >>> equivalent to the volume of daily global oil production).
>> > >>>    In other words, we would need to find an underground location (or
>> > >>> locations) able to swallow a volume equal to the contents of 41 oil
>> > >>> supertankers each day, 365 days a year."
>> > >>>     The rest of the article is about the 23,000 miles of new
>> > >>> pipeline needed and the social problems with property rights and the
>> > >>> 25% reduced output of power plants due to carbon capture.
>> > >>
>> > >> Any thinking person can see this is a near impossible task in the
>> > >> near term even if the figure is cut in half. Many look to France for
>> > >> Co2 reduction where its no secret that they do it using nuclear
>> > >> energy and reprocess the waste. They even export some electricity to
>> > >> other European nations.  If you believe Co2 is a real problem for
>> > >> corals and want to reduce oil use we should do what the French did.
>> > >> That way we can remain productive and not depend on foreign sources
>> > >> of goods such as the computers on which we write these messages. Gene
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Gene
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
>> > >> ------------------------------------
>> -----------------------------------
>> > >> E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
>> > >> University of South Florida
>> > >> Marine Science Center (room 204)
>> > >> 140 Seventh Avenue South
>> > >> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
>> > >> <eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>> > >> Tel 727 553-1158----------------------------------
>> > >> -----------------------------------
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > >
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>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________
> "reality leaves a lot to the imagination..."  John Lennon
>



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