[Coral-List] Fw: What agency should list corals

Wed Apr 3 03:09:03 EDT 2013

What does maximizing social welfare means?
I think social scientists should focus on the concept of fundamental human needs, then work with the society, other scientists etc, on identifying and promoting ways to satisfy these fundamental needs, that have a minimal impact/ecological footprint. This is the opposite of what is being done nowadays by economists for example: fabricating needs and promoting resource intensive, dubious, to say the least, satisfiers. 
Social scientists should not forget to multiply by 9 billions (soon to come world population) the resources required by any of their identified social welfare or perception inclusion proposal to make it meaningful, fair and sustainable in the "medium-short term". 

Simply "making sure that (current) society's perceptions, preferences, attitudes, values etc. are brought into policy-making" sounds a somehow limited and static approach compared to the great role social scientists could play in finding a solutions to the problems of our days. 
Also the task is not really about managing resources or other species but is about managing human society and ourselves as a species.

An attempt to describing "fundamental human needs" that I find particularly interesting is the one developed by the economist Manfred Max-Neef. You can find a brief description here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs
or best in his articles about "Human Scale Development":
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nlow9x3k7lxuorh/2007-manfred-max-neef-fundamental-human-needs.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v107a9kd7zfsi7n/Max-neef_Human_Scale_development.pdf

According to him "Fundamental human needs are constant through all human cultures and across historical time periods. What changes over time and between cultures is the strategies by which these needs are satisfied".
I call social scientists to work out better strategies then the one advertised nowadays.

Francesca
PS. I am sorry but I have serious troubles in considering most branches of economics an 
hard science due to its many false assumptions, failed and missed predictions, disregard to very important obvious variables and 
sort of implicit agenda. 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Christopher Hawkins <chwkins at yahoo.com>
To: "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals

All-

It is disappointing to see some seemingly very intelligent folks post some of these remarks.

I have participated in a number of natural resource social science forums as well, so a I am quite confused with the statements made in this string of emails.

I will re-iterate that whether you are biological scientist or a social scientist, you are a *scientist*, and therefore (typically) interested in understanding the phenomena in a reliable, valid, representative, and generalizable way. As a human dimensions specialist, I am charged with making sure that society's perceptions, preferences, attitudes, values etc. are brought into policy-making in a rigorous and objective way. I am not sure how that all of a sudden becomes me ignoring that there are "very real limits to the level at which the natural systems and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system ceases to function in a normal way, if at all. 
 Of course there are, and every social scientist worthy of the title would agree. Throwing that statement  out there re-enforces a misguided stereotype and confuses one profession with another. For what purpose, I'm not sure. 

Managing nature resources is as much a social endeavor as it is an ecological one. The goals, objectives, and reasons we manage areas or species are derived from society: the last time I looked there was no divine stone tablet telling us how these places, animals, plants, and habitats should look. Attempting to manage such resources without solid social science would be as silly and inadvisable as attempting to manage them without solid ecological science.

Best,
Chris

Christopher Hawkins, Ph.D.
Fisheries Social Scientist 

University of Hawaii/NOAA Fisheries Service
Honolulu

From: Pedro H. Rodríguez phernanrod at yahoo.com
Sent: Thu Mar 28 14:38:40 EDT 2013
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

WE scientists? The social and eonomic scientists dealing with natural-resource use apply the same scientific philosophy as you and me, Dennis, and their goal is to maximize social welfare under the constraint of sustainable resources. I see no conflict of interest. 

Pedro
________________________________
From: Quenton <qdokken at gulfmex..org>
To: "'Szmant, Alina'" <szmanta at uncw.edu>; 'Pedro H. Rodríguez' <phernanrod at yahoo.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

Good Day All;

Social and economic practice do not necessarily follow the constructs of
science and certainly not the realities of the limits of nature.  In
economic and social science forums, rarely have I heard discussed the fact
that there are very real limits to the level at which the natural
 systems
and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system
ceases to function in a normal way, if at all.  The belief seems to be that
natural habitats, wild populations, and the cycles of ecosystem dynamics
can be compromised infinitely to serve the needs and wants of humans. The
fact is that nature did not evolve in a manner to be sustainable under the
variety and quantity of insults and compromises that humans inflict.  Nor is
nature geared to adapt on a human generational time scale.  Every
environmental issue we face today can be discussed in terms of lack of
understanding/acceptance of the fact that nature can only be compromised to
a limited extent before it fails. Our regulatory system of issuing permits
is based on the belief that nature can be compromised infinitely.  Yes,
society must have jobs and business opportunities to exist and flourish.
Yes, there must be
 access to natural resources to meet the needs and wants
of humans/society.  But, at some point planning and permitting must factor
the limits of nature into the model.  Nature does not take into account an
individual's or community's culture, history, religion, uniqueness, dreams,
financial need, property rights, or any other purely human contrivance. In
and of itself, nature is a perpetual motion machine.  Nature will function
just fine until something or someone disrupts its cycles to a point that the
engine stops.. Very clearly we can see the train coming at us and we don't
seem to be able to get off the track.  

Quenton Dokken, Ph.D.
President/CEO
Gulf of Mexico Foundation, Inc.

361-882-3939 office
361-442-6064 cell
qdokken at gulfmex.org

Office:
3833 South Staples
Suite S214
Corpus Christi,
 TX 78411

Mail:
PMB 51  
5403 Everhart Rd.
Corpus Christi, TX 78411

www.gulfmex.org

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Szmant, Alina
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:09 PM
To: Pedro H.. Rodríguez; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals
under the Endangered)

I think the biggest difference between the natural sciences and the social
sciences might be in our views of what is sustainable...  Many of us
 natural
scientists think that the terms "sustainable development"  or "sustainable
exploitation of resources"  are oxymorons!   There is nothing sustainable
about human development or exploitation as long as human population growth
is not halted and human population size is greatly reduced.

*************************************************************************
Dr. Alina M. Szmant
Professor of Marine Biology
Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology
University of North Carolina Wilmington
5600 Marvin Moss Ln
Wilmington NC 28409 USA
tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
*******************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Pedro H.
Rodríguez
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:39 PM
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals
under the Endangered)

WE scientists? The social and eonomic scientists dealing with
natural-resource use apply the same scientific philosophy as you and me,
Dennis, and their goal is to maximize social welfare under the constraint of
sustainable resources. I see no conflict of interest. 

Pedro
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