[Coral-List] What agency should list corals
Quenton
qdokken at gulfmex.org
Wed Apr 3 09:34:37 EDT 2013
Good Day All,
Christopher and Martin make excellent points. In his last paragraph Christopher says, " And their desired condition is a question of what ecosystem does society want with what costs and trade-off?" This is the illusion that the global society labors under - that nature's ecosystem can be shaped to whatever extent humans, with a diversity of motivations, want it to be. And, life will continue as we know it. This is wrong and the science communities know it is wrong. Nature does not have a brain, culture, traditions, compassion. It exists as the sum total of countless geological, chemical, atmospheric, oceanographic, and biological cycles. It is a very complex perpetual motion machine as long as the cycles are not disrupted. To nature, it is irrelevant what humans want or at what cost. Human life and societies must live within the constraints of nature's limits. In the near and long-term scope that is the only choice humans have to make, do we want future generations to experience life as we know it or do we want to roll the dice for them and wish them good luck.
Today, it is our decision to make whether or not our grandchildren's grandchildren will have a natural ecosystem capable of supporting an acceptable quality of life. I believe we are at the point in the development of human culture that practitioners of all sciences must step forward with a unified and loud voice to unmask the illusion. If 9 billion people are going to live on this planet they must shape their culture around the limits of nature rather than try to shape nature around societies needs and wants.
Quenton
Quenton Dokken, Ph.D.
President/CEO
Gulf of Mexico Foundation, Inc.
361-882-3939 office
361-442-6064 cell
qdokken at gulfmex.org
Office:
3833 South Staples
Suite S214
Corpus Christi, TX 78411
Mail:
PMB 51
5403 Everhart Rd.
Corpus Christi, TX 78411
www.gulfmex.org
-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Martin Moe
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Christopher Hawkins; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals
Chris
In a way, Chris, you have made my point. Science allows us
to understand the world and ourselves, imperfectly of course, and within
specific parameters that are divorced as much as possible from our human
tendency to see things in the light of our beliefs, philosophies, and prejudices.
There is a common understanding among scientists of all disciplines, created
over many, many years, which defines how science is done so that the results
reflect reality as closely as possible. Most people do not have a functional understanding
of what scientists do and how they do it. Usually the best that can be expected
from the bulk of humanity is that what science produces will be respected and scientific
viewpoints will be given credence. Your are correct in that I don’t have a good
understanding of social science, but I know that social science conducted as a
science enables us to better understand humanity and modern life. It takes many
years to understand, and imperfectly at that, any of the sciences, and every
scientific discipline has its own terminology and body of knowledge, but the
common ground of the scientific method allows intelligent discourse between
those that understand the basis of modern science. This does not extend to most
of the people and the language of science is not comprehended and for the most
part, ignored.
My point, imperfectly made, I’m sure, was that we can’t
expect the general public to understand, or even pay attention, to the discourse
of science without a translation into the language of popular culture. This has
been a topic visited and revisited on this list for, well, years. The problems
we face are affecting us now, but will affect us most strongly in the future. As
you and Francesca have mentioned, science, hard and soft, seems to be mostly
concerned with responding to what humanity and it’s societies require for
cultures to expand and meet the immediate material demands of the people. If we
are to survive into the future as human cultures growing in knowledge and
compassion there has to be another aspect to our growth, namely an understanding
of how our unchecked population growth and exploitation of natural resources
can not continue indefinitely. We cannot talk science to the public. We have to
engage them on their level. We are making strides in that direction but we have
to improve.
Martin
________________________________
From: Christopher Hawkins <chwkins at yahoo.com>
To: Martin Moe <martin_moe at yahoo.com>; "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals
Martin,
Political change is enacted through all sorts of vehicles. Advocacy mostly. Sometimes advocacy is underpinned by good science (social and/or biophysical). Sometimes it's underpinned by a very biased agenda.
When you say that social science includes social interactions such as religion and tyranny, I fear you may not have a good understanding of what social science entails. I may be wrong. Now, if you are talking about a study (for example) of which factors best explain how several of the world's prominent religions approach managing nature, and you asked me to select an appropriate theoretical framework to ground the study, identify a representative sample of pastors, priests, imams, etc. to interview, identify the most appropriate subsets of the religions in question, and determine adequate sample size for
the statistical analysis of the interview or survey questions...well, now you are starting to talk about social *science*. But if you are simply talking about religions or tyranny, well, those are simply social things. Not the rigorous study of those things.
I can talk about coral all day long. But until I start talking about understanding a reef or species on that reef using biological theory, accepted field or lab methods, and appropriate stats that speak to hypotheses, I can't really say I'm talking science. Same with social science.
Yes, people are complacent. And I have my doubts that we will overcome the socio-political agendas that constrain immediate action on issues such as global climate change anytime soon (if ever). If you want to know *why* people are complacent in the face of such evidence in order that you may then determine what type of communication might help reduce that complacency, then tap a social scientist
(or, better yet, read the literature that has already been produced...this is not an uncommon topic for social psychologists). Ecological scientists are not equipped to design studies to answer this type of question. Just as you wouldn't turn to a social scientist to undertake research into what underpins how fish might distribute themselves in an estuary.
Most ecosystems are coupled: their condition is a result of both human and natural influences. And their desired condition is a question of what ecosystem does society want with what costs and trade-off? That is an important foundational question that we often overlook. Our research paradigms should start reflecting this on a wider scale.
Best,
Chris
________________________________
From: Martin Moe <martin_moe at yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Hawkins <chwkins at yahoo.com>; "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml..noaa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals
Christopher,
You’re right, social science is very important, after all, it
is through social science that change is enacted. And social science includes
all forms of social interactions that result in governance of our societies;
autocracy, religious rule, dictatorship, the tyranny of royalty, and the
relative individual freedom offered in a functional democracy. Social science
gives us the insight to know how our democracy is working and where it can be
improved. But people are complacent, reluctant to act when things are
apparently going well and the future is far off. Our cars these days have that
little light that says “check engine soon” when things are not quite right and
the potential of disaster is lurking in the mysterious innards of the engine.
But “soon” is not today and we usually become accustomed to that little light
and often don’t find the time to attend to it until the engine demands that we
do so. I think that some of us even though we appreciate the importance of
social science in the workings of our democracy think that somehow, someway, we
should find a way to work together to hook up the horn to that little warning light. Scientists of all persuasions are well equipped to understand the implications
of that little light; we just need to find the right way to make the horn work
as well.
Martin
________________________________
From: Christopher Hawkins <chwkins at yahoo.com>
To: "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals
All-
It is disappointing to see some seemingly very intelligent folks post some of these remarks.
I have participated in a number of natural resource social science forums as well, so a I am quite confused with the statements made in this string of emails.
I will re-iterate that whether you are biological scientist or a social scientist, you are a *scientist*, and therefore (typically) interested in understanding the phenomena in a reliable, valid, representative, and generalizable way. As a human dimensions specialist, I am charged with making sure that society's perceptions, preferences, attitudes, values etc. are brought into policy-making in a rigorous and objective way. I am not sure how that all of a sudden becomes me ignoring that there are "very real limits to the level at which the natural systems and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system ceases to function in a normal way, if at all.
Of course there are, and every social scientist worthy of the title would agree. Throwing that statement out there re-enforces a misguided stereotype and confuses one profession with another. For what purpose, I'm not sure.
Managing nature resources is as much a social endeavor as it is an ecological one. The goals, objectives, and reasons we manage areas or species are derived from society: the last time I looked there was no divine stone tablet telling us how these places, animals, plants, and habitats should look. Attempting to manage such resources without solid social science would be as silly and inadvisable as attempting to manage them without solid ecological science.
Best,
Chris
Christopher Hawkins, Ph.D.
Fisheries Social Scientist
University of Hawaii/NOAA Fisheries Service
Honolulu
________________________________
From: Quenton <qdokken at gulfmex..org>
To: "'Szmant, Alina'" <szmanta at uncw.edu>; 'Pedro H. Rodríguez' <phernanrod at yahoo.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)
Good Day All;
Social and economic practice do not necessarily follow the constructs of
science and certainly not the realities of the limits of nature. In
economic and social science forums, rarely
have I heard discussed the fact
that there are very real limits to the level at which the natural
systems
and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system
ceases to function in a normal way, if at all. The belief seems to be that
natural habitats, wild populations, and the cycles of ecosystem dynamics
can be compromised infinitely to serve the needs and wants of humans. The
fact is that nature did not evolve in a manner to be sustainable under the
variety and quantity of insults and compromises that humans inflict. Nor is
nature geared to adapt on a human generational time scale. Every
environmental issue we face today can be discussed in terms of lack of
understanding/acceptance of the fact that nature can only be compromised to
a limited extent before it fails. Our regulatory system of issuing permits
is based on the belief that nature can be compromised infinitely. Yes,
society must have jobs and business opportunities to exist and flourish.
Yes, there must be
access to natural resources to meet the needs and wants
of humans/society. But, at some point planning and permitting must factor
the limits of nature into the model. Nature does not take into account an
individual's or community's culture, history, religion, uniqueness, dreams,
financial need, property rights, or any other purely human contrivance. In
and of itself, nature is a perpetual motion machine. Nature will function
just fine until something or someone disrupts its cycles to a point that the
engine stops. Very clearly we can see the train coming at us and we don't
seem to be able to get off the track.
Quenton Dokken, Ph.D.
President/CEO
Gulf of Mexico Foundation, Inc.
361-882-3939 office
361-442-6064 cell
qdokken at gulfmex.org
Office:
3833 South
Staples
Suite S214
Corpus Christi,
TX 78411
Mail:
PMB 51
5403 Everhart Rd.
Corpus Christi, TX 78411
www.gulfmex.org
-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Szmant, Alina
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:09 PM
To: Pedro H.. Rodríguez; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals
under the Endangered)
I think the biggest difference between the natural
sciences and the social
sciences might be in our views of what is sustainable... Many of us
natural
scientists think that the terms "sustainable development" or "sustainable
exploitation of resources" are oxymorons! There is nothing sustainable
about human development or exploitation as long as human population growth
is not halted and human population size is greatly reduced.
*************************************************************************
Dr. Alina M. Szmant
Professor of Marine Biology
Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology
University of North Carolina Wilmington
5600 Marvin Moss Ln
Wilmington NC 28409 USA
tel: 910-962-2362 fax: 910-962-2410 cell: 910-200-3913
http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
*******************************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Pedro H.
Rodríguez
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:39 PM
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals
under the Endangered)
WE scientists? The social and eonomic scientists dealing with
natural-resource use apply the same scientific philosophy as you and me,
Dennis, and their goal is to maximize social welfare under the constraint of
sustainable resources.
I see no conflict of interest..
Pedro
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