[Coral-List] political arguments on coral-list

Jim Hendee jim.hendee at noaa.gov
Fri May 23 09:20:10 EDT 2014


Dale,

    If you're referring to my comment, "I mean, some might say that
professing that most of coral reefs' ills can be traced to African dust
is a bit odd, but we let that one out of the bag, too," that wasn't a
jab at Gene, that was a statement meant to show I try to moderate with
an even hand.  In fact, I didn't mention his name, and I have over the
years come to believe African Dust IS important as one of many stressors
contributing to coral reef decline. 

    Anyway, Gene, if you took offense, my apologies.

    Jim

On 5/23/14, 7:56 AM, Griffin, Dale wrote:
> Bill.......how can you drop Gene's name followed by a list of stressors to
> the Florida Keys reef tract that doesn't include 'African dust'..  :)
> .....now I understand that there are still 'dust' skeptics per the recent
> jab at Gene by NOAA folks but if one doesn't think desert dust deposition
> in our surface water plays no influential role, whether it be the affects
> of fertilization, toxicity or microorganisms....then one does not have a
> very good grasp of 'the big picture'  ......Dale
>
> "Everybody is ignorant, just on different subjects"
>                                            Will Rogers
>
> Dale W. Griffin, Ph.D., MSPH
> Environmental/Public Health Microbiologist
> United States Geological Survey
> 600 4th Street South
> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> Office # - 727-502-8075
> Fax # - 727-502-8001
> Cell # 850-274-3566
> email - dgriffin at usgs.gov
>
> email - dale.w.griffin at gmail.com
>
> <http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dale_Griffin/>
>
>
> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 3:22 PM, William Precht <william.precht at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I was going to stay out this mess because it was getting personal.
>>
>> Two of my very close friends, colleagues, and mentors, Billy Causey and
>> Gene Shinn, are taking shots at each other.  This is painful to watch,
>> especially in a public forum.
>>
>> However, for Mike Risk to come along and blame Billy (i.e. managers of the
>> FKNMS) for coral loss over the last few decades is both scientifically
>> unfounded and wrongheaded.  Data from throughout the Caribbean and the
>> Florida Keys indicate that no form of local stewardship or management could
>> have protected these coral populations (especially the loss of *Acropora
>> palmata* and *A. cervicornis*) from their major sources of mortality or
>> changed the overall trajectory of coral loss during the past few decades.
>> Specifically in Florida, winter cold fronts, hurricanes, numerous coral
>> bleaching events, and coral and urchin diseases are stressors with known
>> cause-and-effect relationships at multiple spatial and temporal scales.
>>
>> I encourage folks on the Coral List interested in the scientific merits of
>> this argument to read the following manuscripts:
>>
>> Precht, W.F. and S.L. Miller. 2007. Ecological Shifts along the Florida
>> Reef Tract: The Past as a Key to the Future. In: Geological Approaches to
>> Coral Reef Ecology. R. B. Aronson (Editor). Chapter 9: 237-312.  Springer,
>> NY.
>>
>> Lirman, D., Schopmeyer, S., Manzello, D., Gramer, L. J., Precht, W. F.,
>> Muller-Karger, F., ... & Thanner, S. (2011). Severe 2010 cold-water event
>> caused unprecedented mortality to corals of the Florida Reef Tract and
>> reversed previous survivorship patterns. *PLoS one*, *6*(8), e23047.
>>
>> Burman, S. G., Aronson, R. B., & van Woesik, R. (2012). Biotic
>> homogenization of coral assemblages along the Florida reef tract. *Marine
>> Ecology Progress Series*, *467*, 89.
>>
>> Toth, L. T., van Woesik, R., Murdoch, T. J. T., Smith, S. R., Ogden, J. C..,
>> Precht, W. F., & Aronson, R. B. (2014). Do no-take reserves benefit
>> Florida’s corals? 14 years of change and stasis in the Florida Keys
>> National Marine Sanctuary. *Coral Reefs*, 1-13.
>>
>> Let's stick to the science!
>>
>> Bill Precht
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Michael Risk <riskmj at mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> Billy:
>>>>
>>>> When Gene started working in Florida, coral cover was about 45%. It is
>>>> now less than 4%.
>>>>
>>>> It is obvious that "management" is failing. Instead of railing against
>>>> Gene, you might give some thought as to the points he makes. Citing the
>>>> complexity of the system is management-speak for, "we have no idea what
>>>> we are doing."
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>> On May 20, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Billy Causey - NOAA Federal <
>>> billy.causey at noaa.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gene,
>>>> Please don 't pretend you know what Sanctuary management is about.
>>>> You are way off the mark and have no idea of the complexity in
>>>> managing 2900 sq nautical miles (9800 sq k) of some of the nation 's
>>>> most significant and heavily- used marine resources with about 28
>>>> different jurisdictions.
>>>>
>>>> The solutions and answers are no where close to as simple as you imply.
>>>>
>>>> When is sailing off into the sunset on your agenda?
>>>> Billy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Billy D. Causey, Ph.D.
>>>> Southeast Regional Director
>>>> NOAA's Office of National Marine Sanctuaries
>>>>
>>>> 33 East Quay Road
>>>> Key West, Florida 33040
>>>>
>>>> Phone:
>>>> 305 809 4670 office
>>>> 305 395 0150 mobile
>>>> 305 293 5011 fax
>>>>
>>>> Email:
>>>> billy.causey at noaa.gov
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 20, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Eugene Shinn <eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you Chris and Daphne. Yes it is a contact sport but one we have
>>>>> all  created. I well remember when the coral-list began. It was for
>>>>> scientists trading technical information...then it began to change and
>>>>> it started to bother some that so much space was used advertising reef
>>>>> management jobs and the like.  When climate and acidification became
>> an
>>>>> issue things became even more political and complicated. I might
>> mention
>>>>> here that global warming came after the 1970s when Steve Schneider was
>>>>> predicting we were headed into another ice age. The problem I
>> constantly
>>>>> worry about is that NOAA, which claims to be a
>>>>> technical/science-oriented agency, sponsors the coral-list. At the
>> same
>>>>> time the Coral reef Sanctuaries are part of NOAA and they are mainly
>>>>> about management/enforcement. Both are under the dept. of Commerce so
>>>>> that adds another level of restraints and unintended consequences.
>> What
>>>>> if science uncovers a problem, for example that aerial spraying of
>>>>> mosquito pesticides is harming the reef, would that activity is made
>>>>> illegal? Not likely because it would drastically affect the
>>>>> Economy/Commerce of the Florida Keys. Another example would be
>>>>> sunscreen, which some published research suggest causes coral
>> bleaching.
>>>>> (The stuff is banned in Mexican coral reef parks) If NOAA/dept. of
>>>>> Commerce banned sunscreen in the Keys might they be accused of
>> promoting
>>>>> more skin cancers? The tourism/economy would certainly be affected. We
>>>>> can't have that. There are many such examples because the economy of
>> the
>>>>> keys is greatly dependent on natural resources such as the
>>>>> fishing/lobster industry. Again the same political problem! The
>>>>> Sanctuary controls those activities by enforcing rules set up by
>> another
>>>>> NOAA agency, National Marine Fisheries. And right next door is
>>>>> Everglades National Park, which is the dept. of Interior with a very
>>>>> different philosophy. Mosquito spraying is not allowed on their
>> property
>>>>> and they have their own fishery rules/regulations and enforcement
>>>>> officers.  And lets not forget Fish and Wildlife Service, yet another
>>>>> part of the dept. of Interior. And of course there are the State Parks
>>>>> such as Pennekamp. See what a convoluted political situation we have!
>> We
>>>>> just do it to ourselves. Does anyone really expect all these diverse
>>>>> parts of government to operate seamlessly especially at their
>>>>> headquarters back in Washington DC where each is constantly trying to
>>>>> increase its funding and influence?  It's clear we can't take politics
>>>>> out of coral reef science and research. A friend of mine used to say
>> the
>>>>> definition of mixed emotions is when your mother in law drives your
>> new
>>>>> Cadillac over a cliff. We certainly seem to have created a lot of
>> mixed
>>>>> emotions to deal with. Gene
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>> -----------------------------------
>>>>> E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
>>>>> University of South Florida
>>>>> College of Marine Science Room 221A
>>>>> 140 Seventh Avenue South
>>>>> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
>>>>> <eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
>>>>> Tel 727 553-1158
>>>>> ---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Coral-List mailing list
>>>>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>>>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Michael Risk
>>> riskmj at mcmaster.ca
>>>
>>>
>>>
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