[Coral-List] Fwd: Has the death of the Great Barrier Reef been greatly, exaggerated??

Tue Nov 1 10:39:46 EDT 2016

All good points - as the physical (i.e., structural/geological) and the
biological (i.e., everything "on" and often including everything within and
above but live") reefs have two very different management contexts.
However, we shouldn't forget the connections between the two. Past
biological communities were the primary builders of the present spatial
heterogeneity. Conversely, the present live community depends on the
spatial complexity of that physical structure. Thus, they are inextricably
linked in a cycle.

But, drilling deeper into the relationship, past *corals* (and other
carbonate producers, recyclers) contributed directly to the edifice
(although in a MUCH more complex loop than most researchers acknowledge).
In contrast, fish really do not depend on live *corals* as much as they do
on the physical complexity of the substrate - case in point, the Florida
Keys (Gene's postscript correctly states "no rocks, no water, no ecosystem"
and not "no corals, no water, no reef").

This is not to say that corals don't matter, but you can put out anything
from a "reef ball" to a leaking toxic waste drum full of spent nuclear fuel
and fish will come to it in droves (if there is no better complexity
available; the latter is a real case, and I haven't seen much different in
"reef growth" between the two. So, we have to be very careful about what we
are trying to "save" when we decide how to characterize the "reef".

And please.... let's put the "GBR obituary" in the ground.

Best,

Dennis

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:41 AM, Vassil Zlatarski <vzlatarski at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Doug,
>
> Shouldn't be better to use "coral reef buildup" or otherwise, but no
> "geological coral reef", which brings misleading denotation?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Vassil
>
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 2:33 AM, Douglas Fenner <
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm just trying to distinguish between the geological formation, that is
> > the calcium carbonate buildup of coral reefs, and the
> biological/ecological
> > community of living organisms that we call a coral reef ecosystem, and
> > point out they are two different things, which aren't distinguished when
> we
> > say "coral reef."  I'm suggesting we distinguish them in our writings and
> > speech.
> > Cheers,  Doug
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Vassil Zlatarski <vzlatarski at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Doug,
> >>
> >> I find myself still wondering what is the geological meaning of your
> >> "geological coral reef" and why such worded term has to be used for all
> >> coral reefs (living, dead and fossil).  Actually you referrer to frame
> and
> >> carcass as geomorphological characteristic.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Vassil
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:02 PM
> >> Subject: Fwd: [Coral-List] Has the death of the Great Barrier Reef been
> >> greatly, exaggerated??
> >> To: Vassil Zlatarski <vzlatarski at gmail.com>, coral list <
> >> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> >>
> >>
> >> Vassil,
> >>     Good point.  I was referring to a (more or less) solid carbonate
> >> structure, built by coral reef organisms, independent of whether it has
> >> living corals on it or not, or whether it was under water or not, or
> >> whether it was old enough to be called a fossil reef or not.  I was
> trying
> >> to make the point that the carbonate structure and the living ecosystem
> on
> >> it are two very different (though interrelated) things, and we (myself
> >> included) often use terms like "coral reef" which don't distinguish
> which
> >> we are talking about, and I think we would do well to make that clear
> >> which
> >> one we are talking about each time we refer to them.  In some places one
> >> exists without the other, the processes involved in producing or
> >> destroying
> >> them are very different, and the time scales involved are very
> different,
> >> much shorter for the ecosystem than for the geological structure.
> >>  Cheers, Doug
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Vassil Zlatarski <vzlatarski at gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Doug,
> >> >
> >> > Frequently used terms are: "reef", "coral reef/ecosystem", "living
> coral
> >> > reef/ecosystem", "dead coral reef/ecosystem", "fossil coral
> >> > reef/ecosystem".  What is the geological meaning of "geological coral
> >> > reefs" used in your posting.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > Vassil
> >> >
> >> > Vassil Zlatarski
> >> > D.Sc. (Biology), Ph.D. (Geology)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Douglas Fenner
> > Contractor for NOAA NMFS, and consultant
> > "have regulator, will travel"
> > PO Box 7390
> > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
> >
> > phone 1 684 622-7084
> >
> > Join the International Society for Reef Studies.  Membership includes a
> > subscription to the journal Coral Reefs, and there are discounts for pdf
> > subscriptions and developing countries.  Coral Reefs is the only journal
> > that is ALL coral reef articles, and it has amazingly LOW prices compared
> > to other journals.  Check it out!  www.fit.edu/isrs/
> >
> > "Belief in climate change is optional, participation is not."- Jim
> Beever.
> >   "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own
> facts."-
> > Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
> >
> > Countries reach landmark deal to limit global warming
> > http://fortune.com/2016/10/16/global-warming-hfcs-deal/
> >
> > Policy: hasten the end of dated fossil-fuel subsidies
> > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v538/n7624/full/
> > 538171c.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20161013&spMailingID=52515861&
> > spUserID=MjA1NTA3MjA0OQS2&spJobID=1022286029&spReportId=MTAyMjI4NjAyOQS2
> >
> > website:  http://independent.academia.edu/DouglasFenner
> >
> > blog: http://ocean.si.edu/blog/reefs-american-samoa-story-hope
> >
> >
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-- 
Dennis Hubbard
Chair, Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
(440) 775-8346

* "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
 Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"