[Coral-List] snorkelers and divers

Thu Sep 29 21:31:04 EDT 2016

Magnus,

      I noted your comment about scientists being bought off by wealthy
environmental organizations that are not elected and responsible to no
one.  Those who have a conservationist view sometimes get carried away with
their enthusiasm, and only present one side of the evidence and arguments,
and are only interested in one type of action.  Scientists do benefit
financially, mostly from grants from government agencies, and in some cases
from private NGOs, though usually the grant goes to their institution, and
the grant picks up their regular salary or a portion of it.  As I’ve
pointed out before, many people benefit from solving problems, such as
policeman, firemen, and so on.  That doesn’t mean it is a bad thing..  But
it is also true that there are lots of people involved with the fishing
industry who are equally enthusiastic in their support of their cause, and
accept funding (such as Hilborn) from the fishing industry.  Plus,
government subsidies for fishing around the world are gigantic.  If you
think that some people are “bought off” by the environmentalists, then
there are many more who are “bought off” by the fishing industry and
government subsidies to the fishing industry.  Further, there is a
well-known effect of regulators whose job is to regulate industries (of
many different types) becoming very familiar with the problems which the
industries complain about and the individuals, and end up being “in bed”
with those that they regulate (catering to their interests or protected
them instead of regulating them), in some cases having previously worked in
that industry, in other cases leaving government service for well-paying
jobs in that industry (called the "revolving door"). There are at least as
many people “bought off” by the fishing industry as there are by
environmentalists.  Most environmental NGO’s operate on shoestring budgets,
they are essentially volunteer organizations, with no money that compares
with a few of the large NGOs, or with the fishing industry, government
subsidies to the fishing industry, or even many private operators in the
fishing industry (a single tuna purse seiner can hold 1000 tons of tuna, at
$2 a pound that's $4 million dollars).  In the USA, the government has
given a private group, which is unelected, called “Fisheries Councils” the
right to draft fisheries regulations (which the government then has the
responsibility to decide whether to adopt as regulations), and the
fisheries industry has captured those fisheries councils and dominates
them.  They are unelected, and they make fisheries policy which is often
approved rubber stamp (if the policy is within the limits of the law)  by
government officials that may fear the power of the fishing lobby, which is
a special interest group (see the Okey article for details of how the
system works and has been distorted).  Conflicts of interest are legally
allowed in Fisheries Councils that would put a person in jail in any other
regulatory agency in the US.  The fishing industry representatives are no
more responsible to the general public than big environmental NGOs are to
the general public, not in the sense of being elected.  The fisheries
industry is responsible only to owners and operators, and their goal, like
that of all other business, is to make money, as much as possible.

      At least the environmental organizations are trying to protect some
ecosystems for the benefit of society as a whole, including future
generations.  Overfishing is about trying to grab as much fish and profits
for yourself right now, and is detrimental to the broader society, future
generations and at times to the ecosystems. Achieving a balance is without
a doubt a very difficult and controversial thing to do, among other things
fishing contributes to the food supply and to the economy.
Conservationists don’t get everything they want, the fishing lobby and
other industries don’t get everything they want.

       Much of what I’ve said applies to developed countries (which is
where the few wealthier NGO’s are), while fishermen in the developing
countries (where most of the world’s coral reefs are) are almost all very
poor, and face a different set of problems.

      Cheers,  Doug

Okey, T.A.  2003.  Membership of the eight Regional Fishery Management
Councils in the United States: are special interests over-represented?
Marine Policy 27: 193-206.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Magnus L Johnson <M.Johnson at hull.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Nicole makes a very interesting point in passing - comparing limiting
> access to the oceans by fishers and by tourists.  I think the drive to
> limit access to the oceans is being promoted by large, unelected,
> unaccountable, philanthropic organisations rather than scientists (although
> these organisations have bought some scientists):
>
> < Ocean grabbing report >
> http://slowfood.com/slowfish/pagine/eng/news/dettaglio_news.lasso?-idn=136
>
> I would not (and I don't think anyone else has) advocate a dictatorial
> exclusionary approach but encouraging raising awareness and schemes such as
> the one Douglas mentioned can only be good things.
>
> cheers, Magnus
>
> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Nicole Crane <nicrane at cabrillo.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I won't say much here, as what has been said makes good sense. BUT, I
> > will say that if we continue thinking about ocean protection as
> > advancing by keeping people out, restricting use by 'laypeople', and
> > dictating who can and can't use the planets oceans (as western
> > scientists I mean), we are bound to run into trouble (I'm really
> > referring to tourism and not fisheries - although that too...).  I do
> > understand the problem, but let's try and approach it in a less
> > patronizing way (I mean perceived patronizing) than targeting tourists
> > for the planets ills.  Again, I am NOT saying there aren't problems that
> > need to be addressed, I'm suggesting that we think carefully through how
> > we approach those who use the oceans, and the impacts.
> >
> > Nicole
> >
> >
> > On 9/15/16 9:20 AM, martina wrote:
> >> Hi Magnus,
> >>
> >> thanks for sharing the two papers - I didn't know the second one, very
> >> interesting!
> >>
> >> I share your concern about snorkelling. Actually, in my experience
> >> working in the diving (but also, more in general, in the marine tourism
> >> business), snorkellers are less experienced and less knowledged about
> >> the sea. Also, it is much easier to organise a mass excursion with a bus
> >> of first-time snorkellers than with first-time divers.
> >>
> >> In general, for what we may argue that the level can and should be
> >> improved, divers have received a minimum of training and have expressed
> >> a certain degree of interest in the sea (a course has a cost and many
> >> novice divers need to overcome some degrees of a natural sense of fear).
> >> This does not apply to snorkellers. Additionally, often snorkellers are
> >> either let alone in the water or guided by staff with a-specific
> >> training - on the contrary divers are mostly guided, and a dive guide
> >> has received specific training.
> >>
> >>
> >> Finally, talking about numbers, it seems clear that snorkellers are many
> >> more than divers, and that their (potential) impact is very concentrated
> >> along a limited stretch of very shallow habitats. One may argue that is
> >> better to sacrify this limited habitats rather than spread impacts at
> >> differen depths over larger areas. Guess it is a matter of how many
> >> people, how concerned, and how vulnerable the site.
> >>
> >> A pro for snorkelling is: it's something nearly everyone can try. If
> >> appropriately done (and there are ways to do it right) it's a fantastic
> >> way to engage people with the sea. So I'd say, as always, it's not the
> >> thing per se but how it is implemented...
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Martina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr Martina Milanese, PhD
> >>
> >> skype: m.milanese
> >> https://it.linkedin.com/in/martina-milanese-46963436
> >> twitter: @martix_m
> >>
> >> Italian Mob. (WA) +39-338-1196672
> >> Moroccan Mob. +212-636808514
> >>
> >> Studio Associato Gaia Snc dei Dottori Antonio Sarà e Martina Milanese
> >> Via Brigata Liguria 1/9 scala A
> >> 16121 Genova - Italy
> >> PI 01600400996
> >>
> >> Il 15/09/16 12:32, Magnus L Johnson ha scritto:
> >>> Hi Martina,
> >>>
> >>> This looks very interesting (especially given some recent passionate
> discussions on Coral-L!)  You/others might also be interested in these open
> access and peer-reviewed articles:
> >>>
> >>> The Relationship between Diver Experience Levels and Perceptions of
> Attractiveness of Artificial Reefs - Examination of a Potential Management
> Tool
> >>>
> >>> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/
> journal.pone.0068899
> >>>
> >>> And
> >>>
> >>> Artificial reefs and marine protected areas: a study in willingness to
> pay to access Folkestone Marine Reserve, Barbados, West Indies
> >>>
> >>> https://peerj.com/articles/2175/
> >>>
> >>> I think artificial reefs have a role to play in reducing the impact of
> scuba divers (especially trainees) on vulnerable sites by drawing them
> away..  However there is the argument also that they serve to increase the
> popularity of diving tourism overall and may in the long term lead to more
> pressure on natural reefs.
> >>>
> >>> It is interesting that diving receives lots of attention (~112 000
> hits on google scholar) while we pay less attention to snorkelling (~6390
> hits) and in my experience the damage to shallow reefs by snorkelers, who
> you could argue may be less committed (generally speaking) to their hobby
> and the marine environment, is significant in many places.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes, Magnus
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: martina [mailto:m.milanese at studioassociatogaia.com]
> >>> Sent: 14 September 2016 21:57
> >>> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> Subject: [Coral-List] Paper out - 50 days free download
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> as an output of the ongoing EU-funded project "Green Bubbles RISE for
> sustainable diving", I'm pleased to announce the publication of the paper:
> >>>
> >>> Scuba diving tourism systems and sustainability: Perceptions by the
> scuba diving industry in two Marine Protected Areas. Tourism Management
> (2017), pp. 385-403 DOI: 10.1016/j.tourman.2016.09.004
> >>>
> >>> The paper will enjoy 50-days (until Nov 1st, 2016) free download at
> this link, courtesy of Elsevier: http://authors.elsevier.com/a/
> 1TiLYxTbMbITH
> >>>
> >>> Abstract: Scuba diving tourism encourages conservation, generates
> revenue, and supports local communities. Understanding its interactions
> with environmental, social, and economic factors is important in the
> context of Marine Protected Areas (MPAs), where dynamics between role
> players are complex.. This study provides insights into the problems
> affecting the sustainability of the scuba diving tourism industry in two
> MPAs in Italy and Mozambique.. The interactions between the industry and
> environment, economy, non-monetary aspects, society, governance, and
> scientific community were investigated via question- naire surveys and
> interviews with 20 scuba diving operators.. Operators felt the importance
> of scuba diving to themselves, MPAs, and resident communities, although
> they lamented limited support to the industry by other stakeholders.
> >>> Recommendations to enhance sustainability include actions ranging from
> engagement in planning and management to education and social
> responsibility. However, the heterogeneity of issues perceived by the
> industry, reflected in differences between the case studies, calls for ad
> hoc measures.
> >>>
> >>> Please let me thank Serena Lucrezi (corresponding author) for her
> incredibly focused attitude all along the way, from laying down field work
> until the final revisions of the proofs. My gratitude also to all other
> authors, it has been a pleasure (and it still is) working with you!
> >>>
> >>> Martina
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Dr Martina Milanese, PhD
> >>>
> >>> skype: m.milanese
> >>> https://it.linkedin.com/in/martina-milanese-46963436
> >>> twitter: @martix_m
> >>>
> >>> Italian Mob. (WA) +39-338-1196672
> >>> Moroccan Mob. +212-636808514
> >>>
> >>> Studio Associato Gaia Snc dei Dottori Antonio Sarà e Martina Milanese
> Via Brigata Liguria 1/9 scala A
> >>> 16121 Genova - Italy
> >>> PI 01600400996
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Coral-List mailing list
> >>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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