[Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
Mário Cachão
mcachao at fc.ul.pt
Mon Nov 9 08:52:09 UTC 2020
Dear All
It's always with a clear surprise in their faces (well, before COVID19, now with the masks I can't tell anymore) that my geology students (on Paleontology classes) or my biology students (on General Geology classes) apprehend that reef is not a biological driven term, synonymous of coral reef.
I always tell the story that in the Brazilian coastal city of "Recife" (the Portuguese name for reef) there are no coral reefs (only beach rock outcrops that acted as such). In fact, locals call "reefs" to beach pockets with exposed rock surfaces covered with calcareous algi crusts and rhodoliths. Not sure if they are conscious of the original term or if is just a touristic strategy.
Cheers,
Mario
_________________________________________________________
Mario Cachao |Associate Professor (w/ Habilitation) | t: +351 217 500 362
Dep. Geology, Fac. Sciences, Univ. Lisbon, Portugal | www.fc.ul.pt/dg
Em 09/11/20, 02:46, "Coral-List em nome de coral-list-request at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov em nome de coral-list-request at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> escreveu:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
(David Weinstein)
2. Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
(Dennis Hubbard)
3. Re: Coral Reef? (Douglas Fenner)
4. Re: For graduate and undergraduate coral reef scientists
(David Blakeway)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 14:59:08 +0000
From: David Weinstein <dave090 at gmail.com>
To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
Cc: "Kosmynin, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov>,
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
skyscraper
Message-ID:
<v1-hK8HpnVJCo7lPh1bY-119f55167651b63f015e431021994ce4 at gmail.com>
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Doug,? Great conversation.? Some people believe the original "reef" definition
derived from the nordic term "rif" that refers to any object that could damage
the keel of a ship (regardless of biological origin).? More on this can be found
in Hubbard (2015). Since then, the public and scientists have added to or
changed the term "reef" and "coral reef" many times such that I feel the debate
regarding what constitutes a "reef" will never be solved.? It depends on who is
using the definition and for what purposes. As a geologist that works on
mesophotic coral ecosystems, I personally use a common geology definition for
reefs, a ?discrete carbonate structure formed by in-situ or bound organic
components that develops topographic relief upon the seafloor? (Wood 1999).?
Note this is a definition for a reef, not a "coral reef."? This definition
implies a reef does not need to be "near sea level", as it can be difficult to
discern this feature in the geological record of reef deposits.? Anyway, just
food for thought.
David Weinstein---Marine Geologist, PhDwww.mesophotic-geology.com
On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 10:43 PM, Douglas Fenner via Coral-List
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov wrote:
That's simple. It does not meet the definition of a "reef." It does not
reach anywhere near the surface. I realize that people commonly refer to
such cold water "bioherms" as "reefs." Modern dictionaries are
"descriptive" not "proscriptive." So they report what people say, not what
they "should say" (which depends in part on who decides what "should"
happen). If the modern dictionary process is used, the "reef" is whatever
people use the term for. Certainly there is some similarity between deep
cold water bioherms and shallow, warm water coral reefs. But the original
meaning of "riff" (reef) is something hard and shallow that if you hit with
a boat does damage to the boat. Language changes over time. But
scientists try to be more specific and accurate and use words in ways
different from the general public.
There are no language police, and unlike for species names, no agreed
on system for defining names. So anyone can use any word any way they
want, and if listeners get the wrong idea, that's a problem for those
speakers and listeners. They may well not get the wrong idea. Meantime,
anyone who wants to can debate how they wish.
I note that mesophotic corals also do not get near the surface, and
those studying those carefully talk about "mesophotic coral ecosystems" NOT
mesophotic reefs. I believe geologists would refer to these deep coral
water constructions as "bioherms" not "reefs." I've argued before that we
should distinguish coral reefs, which are geological structures and not
themselves alive, and the coral reef ecosystems of living organisms on, in,
and around the geological structure and which produce the geological
structures. But people can, and will, do as they wish. I think
standardized nomenclature can assist accurate communication, which is
helpful.
I also note that the popular press often refers to these deep cold
water bioherms as being "diverse." My impression is that most such
bioherms are constructed each by a single coral species, so the coral
diversity is vastly lower than almost all shallow tropical coral reefs. I
would be surprised if the other organisms associated with such bioherms are
as diverse as they are on tropical coral reefs. I think the journalists
assume they are diverse like shallow tropical coral reefs, I suspect they
are not. Perhaps someone could shed light on that.
Cheers, Doug
On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM Gregory Boland via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Dear Kosynin,
>
> I would be interested to hear your opinion regarding your prior mention
> that "there are no deep-water coral reefs" in consideration of a deep-water
> Lophelia habitat that was studies during a BOEM/NOAA OER-funded study in
> the Gulf of Mexico called Lophelia II. One spectacular site was named
> Robert's Reef after the LSU professor who is also an author on the paper I
> will be referencing. BOEM provided supplemental funding to do a number of
> deep piston cores on the pinnacles of this feature (I'll refrain from
> calling it a reef). One core of over 50 ft found continuous Lophelia
> fragments to the bottom of the core representing growth back at least
> 300,000 years using associated fossils etc. There were periods of no-growth
> related to low sea stands (temperature related issues rather than water
> depth). Just curious what part of the definition of a coral reef this
> deep-water coral habitat does not meet.
>
> newspaper summary:
>
https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_43d1fd7a-1677-5a10-acfe-702895176119.html
>
> Paper (abstract):
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063717303916
>
> Lophelia II BOEM final report:
>
> https://espis.boem.gov/final%20reports/5522.pdf
>
>
> The coral reef definition is certainly complicated (and sometimes
> political) with one extreme that was pushed during some attempts to get the
> Coral Reef Conservation Act reauthorized that merely required "skeletal
> remains" of coral to define a "coral reef" and not even mentioning it had
> to be underwater allowing something like the walls of the Alamo to be
> described as a coral reef. The State of Florida currently has a similar
> definition where no living reef-building corals are required to be present
> to meet the definition of a "coral reef" in order to impose legal penalties
> for groundings etc.
>
> Thanks for any consideration,
>
> Greg Boland
> retired BOEM Biological Oceanographer
>
> ________________________________
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on behalf of
> Kosmynin, Vladimir via Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 4:19 AM
> To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> skyscraper
>
> Doug,
>
> There is no simple answer to your last question: why some reefs able to
> ?keep up? or even ?catch up? with subsidence even, while others ?give up?
> and become coral banks or just banks, even being in warm tropical waters.
> Water temperatures is just one of numerous factors controlling coral reef
> growth. Just a few of them below, far not all.
>
> Obviously, very important is the rate of subsidence, which would be a sum
> of glacio-eustatic and local vertical tectonic movement. In each of three
> Meltwater pulses (1A, 1B, 1C) which happened between 14600 yr ago and 7600
> yr ago, the sea level rise was 4.5-5.0 m/100 yr (4.5-5.0 mm/yr) with total
> 27.5 m rise in 7000 yr (~4 mm/yr or ~40 m/1000yr). If at the same time
> happened tectonic subsidence, coral buildup hardly can keep up with rapid
> subsidence, because average coral reef buildup in Holocene was 5-10 m/1000
> yr. That is why we do not know reefs that would keep up growing from the
> time of the beginning of deglaciation (~22-20Ky ago), from about 100-130 m
> below present level. By far we know only one case, it is in French
> Polynesia, where accumulated over 100 m of coral reef in the time of
> deglaciation (if I am not mistaken, it is in Moorea, work of Pirazzoli,
> Montaggioni and coauthors). Later, passing 7000 years ago, the rate of
> glacio-eustatic sea level rise considerably slowed down, and that time most
> of Holocene coral reefs could grow keeping up with sea level rise or
> catching up from relatively shallow antecedent relief.
>
> Great role in the rate of reef-building/reef growth would play local set
> of reef-building coral species. For example, if one Atlantic reef for some
> reasons doesn?t have Acropora palmata, it wouldn?t be able to grow
> vertically as fast as a reef with A. palmata, because few other main
> reef-building species in the Atlantic do not have the same rate of growth
> as A. palmata. Somebody would say that A. cervicornis can grow as fast if
> not faster. Yes, but it would be able to build a reef only in unique
> situation where A. cervicornis bush is not periodically turning to rubble.
> Rear example of such reefs built by A. cervicornis (and kept up with rising
> sea level) would be recently described by Vasil Zlatarski unusual type of
> reefs in muddy waters of Gulf of Guacanayabo in Cuba.
>
> Of the other factors, very critical are antecedent relief (i.e. subaerial
> relief occupied by reef-building corals during sea level rise/submergence)
> and sedimentary environment (in worst case scenario the excess of sediments
> can ?shut down? reef-building completely). Submergence of gentle slopes
> with plenty of sediments would obviously restrict coral reef formation. On
> the other end, very steep slops would not be able to hold large coral
> accumulation and, I guess, you have seen sections of such slopes being
> grown to overhangs, and saw some of them ultimately collapsed.
>
> Water clarity is a factor; as you know well, photosynthesis is very
> important for the growth reef-building corals.
>
> In a short, there are several factors, and even in single atoll, one can
> find one side successfully ?keeping up?, while the other is getting
> submerged.
>
> We have number of great publications by coral reef geologists like Ian
> McIntyre, Gene Shinn, Barbara Lidz, Edward Purdy, Paolo Pirazzoli, Lucien
> Montaggioni, and many others (apologies for not giving all names) who
> described how reefs were growing in last glacial cycle.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir Kosmynin
>
>
> From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 3:15 PM
> To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> Cc: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com>;
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> All good points, Alina and Vladimir. I would add that guyots and other
> seamounts are abundant particularly in the Pacific. You can easily see
> loads of them in Google Earth. For those who would like to explore more,
> I'd recommend the "Seamount catalogue" https://earthref.org/SC/<
>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1LUde8_GTVxYlw8acBdULug9YUXyhubTAvzrv0iQLznIXJfP8I28gap9cFevgYQ6dE8T-kYkEjiVqXhYhrl3scCfSEb15JZnXBf5444t30kU98Yr4YyEfwBbpciVWtBnSwL90MhZEXwM1ueC3ZRR9o4wV-GNEHn7dxxOB22Xqse9svg3CSYL6zXG_7X15Qg2fjyf5GBpISCV4mSVGzXmWM6U3EcDUTVMNSHP8Yqy1KIPdDI2qwXP9zs3aiFK7Ck5treVq5D3MSPV4isibUOr-5FzsTxkxlhZ9oLV-YEdAJHFquxMoJw1DODlDIg2AU_vKHCHPZeYjfDMRfydvB5fPWw/https%3A%2F%2Fearthref.org%2FSC%2F>
> You can get lots of info on seamounts there, and you will see that there is
> a whole list of recent discoveries of new seamounts, it is a steady
> stream. If memory serves, it includes some islands as well, probably just
> smaller islands. It should still be possible to get it to show you a
> contour map of each one, from which you may be able to see whether it has a
> flat top or not. See their note that you'll need to use "advanced
> search." One of the fun bits of info they provide is the volume of the
> seamount. Their volume is often amazingly large, usually over 100 cubic
> km, sometimes in the thousands.
> I'm suddenly remembering that not long ago there was a big fuss about
> the big announcement that a big portion of the ocean floor was being mapped
> for the first time. First time?? No, not by a long shot. Take a look at
> Google Earth and tell me the sea floor has not been mapped before. I'm old
> enough to remember when National Geographic first published world maps that
> included the sea floor, it was amazing. A long time ago, I don't remember
> when. So this new study, surely is mapping some areas in more detail, with
> higher resolution than they were mapped before. As seems to be so often
> now, the headlines were greatly exaggerated. If you zoom in on Google
> Earth, you will see areas of the sea floor that have much higher resolution
> than other areas. That's great, but it's not mapping them for the first
> time. In some areas the high resolution is in a straight band. That's the
> track of a ship that was recording higher resolution multibeam sonar, I'd
> bet. No ship can cover the whole ocean, but when a ship that has the sonar
> is cruising to some location, they leave it on to gather data as they go.
> Hence the straight bands of high resolution.
> The Darwin Point that Grigg named, is where the growth rate of the
> reef no longer is able to keep up with the rate of subsidence, which in the
> Hawaiian-Emperor chain is because the chain is being carried slowly into
> higher latitudes with colder water, slowing coral growth. If there is a
> chain somewhere that is not being carried into colder water, it would be
> predicted not to have a Darwin Point.
> I agree with Valdimir that a flat top does not necessarily mean it
> was a coral reef, and it may not be obvious from a topographic map whether
> it was a coral reef on top or not. Also, interesting, it looks to me like
> there are plenty of guyots in the tropics, where cold surface water could
> not be the reason that they were unable to keep up with subsidence, since
> near surface water is warm. They would be called "give up reefs" instead
> of "keep up reefs" or "catch up reefs." So some couldn't keep up in waters
> of the same temperature as others that did keep up. Why?
> Cheers, Doug
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:46 AM Kosmynin, Vladimir <
> Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov<mailto:Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov>>
> wrote:
> Hi Alina, great to hear from you.
>
> The bank that was discovered in the area of GBR would be a guyot only if
> its volcanic nature is confirmed, which looks doubtful to me according to
> tectonic position, but I can be wrong.
> Guyots are not necessarily drowned reefs, as you correctly mentioned.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vladimir
>
> Vladimir N. Kosmynin, Ph.D.
> Environmental Consultant
> Beaches, Inlets and Ports Program
> Division of Water Resource Management
> Florida Department of Environmental Protection
> 2600 Blair Stone Road, MS 3590 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400
> e-mail: vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> Tel: (850)245-7622
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com<mailto:
> alina at cisme-instruments.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 12:34 PM
> To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>>; douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: RE: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> I have to check this article again for details, but it appears that the
> newly found structure is technically a guyot, a flat top submerged
> seamount. Guyots are usually volcanoes that are emergent when formed, then
> get flattened as they subside below sea level by wave action and subaerial
> erosion. If this happens in the tropics in an area favorable to coral reef
> formation, you basically get the Darwinian atoll formation sequence. If
> after the atoll stage the structure continues to subside, it becomes a
> drowned reef like the many found to the NW of the Hawaiian Island chain.
> Rick Grigg wrote extensively about all this and came up with the Darwin
> Point as the latitude and depth at which coral reef growth can't keep up
> with subsidence (or sea level rise). I am guessing that is the origin of
> this newly found structure. I am pretty sure there are hundreds more out
> there that humans haven't come across yet.
>
> In my opinion, they are just drowned reefs that will suffer the same fate
> of any deeper reef as sea level and ocean temperatures continue to rise.
> Again, a lot of hype by the press and people with little background in
> coral reef geology (or marine geology in general). New seamount but not
> novel or promising or different.
>
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> On Behalf Of Kosmynin, Vladimir
> via Coral-List
> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:34 PM
> To: douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> Doug,
> The news about 500 m tall "coral reef" runs everywhere in press/internet.
> It is very interesting discovery, and I spent evening watching nice video
> recorded from ROV. Just one comment, which would be in the stream of this
> long conversation about origin of reefs and atolls, importance of
> geomorphology, and appropriate use of terminology. Discovered relief
> feature is not a reef; it is coral bank. The depth of 42 m on top of this
> relief feature tells us that this is not a reef by definition. Somebody
> would ask, if this bank used to be a coral reef in the past. Yes, when
> sea level was around 42-45 m below present, it was a reef. Was it coral
> reef or not can be answered by drilling and confirming if it was built or
> at least capped on top by substantial (meters) growth of reef-building
> corals. The origin of this relief feature would need to be studied to
> state, for example, this this is submerged coral reef, and what it was
> growing on.
>
> I think it was already mentioned, that there is no "deep-water" coral
> reefs, or "mesophotic coral reefs" - these are all coral banks, by
> definition.
> I guess excessive use of term "coral reef" caused by the same desire to
> attract attention, as was mentioned about "Darwin was wrong" article.
>
> Using the occasion, I would like to appreciate all who participated in the
> discussion about origin of atolls and Darwin's work, and especially David
> Blakeway for his advice to young scientists to read more old publications
> (which is applicable also to quite a few of not so young scientists as
> well).
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir Kosmynin
>
>
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:17:15 -1100
>
> From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com><mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>>>
>
> To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov><mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> <mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>>
>
> Subject: [Coral-List] new reef is tall
>
> Message-ID:
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>
>
> Newly discovered reef is taller than a skyscraper
>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kXYQikWQhsyy0Sbmq0_RER8yO-BGlw3-EpmG1L2oKVZO1qi60t2iaVmIqITZod8eSG9i7r2tCrZCiH6eTTA-xk6uDqYZnrDSKWhTJA8q4AwNDiqceqnlP-guNTN3jCbglgat3LWhMAOIiLalthKFfT3dnZ9jYV8aaZf7yivMseiOZSYhzC835XTl4R5-d1odJAx_lRx9kjPV9ssO8zvMdhRwkRQUVGLg9GsFymuVPsnmK-tUSXBIh149Rd7pE6GYn6bo8oX_MsuG861TnguOaz-hoIdXNkHMpljvw1-CIpZfno0-1nfj8gCHlvB9I5g6aWng0Ta_8uZi4PHZDsMesTLGKl3r63z9AmqHO8xifKQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencemag.org%2Fnews%2F2020%2F10%2Fnewly-discovered-reef-taller-skyscraper
>
>
>
> Australian scientists discover 500 meter tall coral reef in the Great
> Barrier Reef- first to be discovered in over 120 years
>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VEVZyzWv9953hsgqb0Hx8fSWcBcQGUSZSO-Bmooh92b9p_mtJqyb-UfA4jwqiTKe_QfnwSyBnJ6vBeDL8YrnnZ3RnTkKr2cKgaBerVE3WoVXd65zBSTzPS_jzOppudd76VDllVO2mQ2I_rhQ__GWe0hzNy2pWNVVERMAaCo8QO-oe_jcu4WxMw_8CE7Lbh2b_vIuXsW1In4m0dQc-a_28wkGFgNRIdRdoKu_uHZJYoitm4Mg10VUGyMZtcGTkSY9PHjn4_voBCu-T4Hlyo4SwBYYKit1kAproU7WqmkSNi_EMNrmhvAOw41ju4HvaHxaYRKOSWhfRk7oRFOXhVUTDg/https%3A%2F%2Fschmidtocean.org%2Faustralian-scientists-discover-500-meter-tall-coral-reef-in-the-great-barrier-reef-first-to-be-discovered-in-over-120-years%2F
>
>
>
> Cheers, Doug
>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 14:54:36 -0500
From: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
Cc: "Kosmynin, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov>,
"coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
skyscraper
Message-ID:
<CAFjCZNYUHp54cDY=n-1kMMji6bst73o9AjZoM2xQ4FT2sXHLOA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
All - I'm not sure whether these are analogous features, but Conrad Neumann
described what sound similar in the Florida Straits at similar depths. I
believe they also were dominated by *Lophelia* but I'll leave it to someone
else to do the legwork there. He called tham, "lithoherms" because, from
ALVIN, they looked to have significantly depositional characteristics even
though they had obviously biotic material on their surfaces. If it seems
like these might have similar origins, you should probably look up the
original citation from the 70s or 80s.
I hope this helps,
Dennis
On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 7:53 AM Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> That's simple. It does not meet the definition of a "reef." It does not
> reach anywhere near the surface. I realize that people commonly refer to
> such cold water "bioherms" as "reefs." Modern dictionaries are
> "descriptive" not "proscriptive." So they report what people say, not what
> they "should say" (which depends in part on who decides what "should"
> happen). If the modern dictionary process is used, the "reef" is whatever
> people use the term for. Certainly there is some similarity between deep
> cold water bioherms and shallow, warm water coral reefs. But the original
> meaning of "riff" (reef) is something hard and shallow that if you hit with
> a boat does damage to the boat. Language changes over time. But
> scientists try to be more specific and accurate and use words in ways
> different from the general public.
> There are no language police, and unlike for species names, no agreed
> on system for defining names. So anyone can use any word any way they
> want, and if listeners get the wrong idea, that's a problem for those
> speakers and listeners. They may well not get the wrong idea. Meantime,
> anyone who wants to can debate how they wish.
> I note that mesophotic corals also do not get near the surface, and
> those studying those carefully talk about "mesophotic coral ecosystems" NOT
> mesophotic reefs. I believe geologists would refer to these deep coral
> water constructions as "bioherms" not "reefs." I've argued before that we
> should distinguish coral reefs, which are geological structures and not
> themselves alive, and the coral reef ecosystems of living organisms on, in,
> and around the geological structure and which produce the geological
> structures. But people can, and will, do as they wish. I think
> standardized nomenclature can assist accurate communication, which is
> helpful.
> I also note that the popular press often refers to these deep cold
> water bioherms as being "diverse." My impression is that most such
> bioherms are constructed each by a single coral species, so the coral
> diversity is vastly lower than almost all shallow tropical coral reefs. I
> would be surprised if the other organisms associated with such bioherms are
> as diverse as they are on tropical coral reefs. I think the journalists
> assume they are diverse like shallow tropical coral reefs, I suspect they
> are not. Perhaps someone could shed light on that.
> Cheers, Doug
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM Gregory Boland via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Dear Kosynin,
> >
> > I would be interested to hear your opinion regarding your prior mention
> > that "there are no deep-water coral reefs" in consideration of a
> deep-water
> > Lophelia habitat that was studies during a BOEM/NOAA OER-funded study in
> > the Gulf of Mexico called Lophelia II. One spectacular site was named
> > Robert's Reef after the LSU professor who is also an author on the paper
> I
> > will be referencing. BOEM provided supplemental funding to do a number of
> > deep piston cores on the pinnacles of this feature (I'll refrain from
> > calling it a reef). One core of over 50 ft found continuous Lophelia
> > fragments to the bottom of the core representing growth back at least
> > 300,000 years using associated fossils etc. There were periods of
> no-growth
> > related to low sea stands (temperature related issues rather than water
> > depth). Just curious what part of the definition of a coral reef this
> > deep-water coral habitat does not meet.
> >
> > newspaper summary:
> >
> https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_43d1fd7a-1677-5a10-acfe-702895176119.html
> >
> > Paper (abstract):
> > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063717303916
> >
> > Lophelia II BOEM final report:
> >
> > https://espis.boem.gov/final%20reports/5522.pdf
> >
> >
> > The coral reef definition is certainly complicated (and sometimes
> > political) with one extreme that was pushed during some attempts to get
> the
> > Coral Reef Conservation Act reauthorized that merely required "skeletal
> > remains" of coral to define a "coral reef" and not even mentioning it had
> > to be underwater allowing something like the walls of the Alamo to be
> > described as a coral reef. The State of Florida currently has a similar
> > definition where no living reef-building corals are required to be
> present
> > to meet the definition of a "coral reef" in order to impose legal
> penalties
> > for groundings etc.
> >
> > Thanks for any consideration,
> >
> > Greg Boland
> > retired BOEM Biological Oceanographer
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on behalf of
> > Kosmynin, Vladimir via Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 4:19 AM
> > To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> > skyscraper
> >
> > Doug,
> >
> > There is no simple answer to your last question: why some reefs able to
> > ?keep up? or even ?catch up? with subsidence even, while others ?give up?
> > and become coral banks or just banks, even being in warm tropical waters.
> > Water temperatures is just one of numerous factors controlling coral reef
> > growth. Just a few of them below, far not all.
> >
> > Obviously, very important is the rate of subsidence, which would be a sum
> > of glacio-eustatic and local vertical tectonic movement. In each of
> three
> > Meltwater pulses (1A, 1B, 1C) which happened between 14600 yr ago and
> 7600
> > yr ago, the sea level rise was 4.5-5.0 m/100 yr (4.5-5.0 mm/yr) with
> total
> > 27.5 m rise in 7000 yr (~4 mm/yr or ~40 m/1000yr). If at the same time
> > happened tectonic subsidence, coral buildup hardly can keep up with rapid
> > subsidence, because average coral reef buildup in Holocene was 5-10
> m/1000
> > yr. That is why we do not know reefs that would keep up growing from the
> > time of the beginning of deglaciation (~22-20Ky ago), from about 100-130
> m
> > below present level. By far we know only one case, it is in French
> > Polynesia, where accumulated over 100 m of coral reef in the time of
> > deglaciation (if I am not mistaken, it is in Moorea, work of Pirazzoli,
> > Montaggioni and coauthors). Later, passing 7000 years ago, the rate of
> > glacio-eustatic sea level rise considerably slowed down, and that time
> most
> > of Holocene coral reefs could grow keeping up with sea level rise or
> > catching up from relatively shallow antecedent relief.
> >
> > Great role in the rate of reef-building/reef growth would play local set
> > of reef-building coral species. For example, if one Atlantic reef for
> some
> > reasons doesn?t have Acropora palmata, it wouldn?t be able to grow
> > vertically as fast as a reef with A. palmata, because few other main
> > reef-building species in the Atlantic do not have the same rate of growth
> > as A. palmata. Somebody would say that A. cervicornis can grow as fast if
> > not faster. Yes, but it would be able to build a reef only in unique
> > situation where A. cervicornis bush is not periodically turning to
> rubble.
> > Rear example of such reefs built by A. cervicornis (and kept up with
> rising
> > sea level) would be recently described by Vasil Zlatarski unusual type of
> > reefs in muddy waters of Gulf of Guacanayabo in Cuba.
> >
> > Of the other factors, very critical are antecedent relief (i.e. subaerial
> > relief occupied by reef-building corals during sea level
> rise/submergence)
> > and sedimentary environment (in worst case scenario the excess of
> sediments
> > can ?shut down? reef-building completely). Submergence of gentle slopes
> > with plenty of sediments would obviously restrict coral reef formation.
> On
> > the other end, very steep slops would not be able to hold large coral
> > accumulation and, I guess, you have seen sections of such slopes being
> > grown to overhangs, and saw some of them ultimately collapsed.
> >
> > Water clarity is a factor; as you know well, photosynthesis is very
> > important for the growth reef-building corals.
> >
> > In a short, there are several factors, and even in single atoll, one can
> > find one side successfully ?keeping up?, while the other is getting
> > submerged.
> >
> > We have number of great publications by coral reef geologists like Ian
> > McIntyre, Gene Shinn, Barbara Lidz, Edward Purdy, Paolo Pirazzoli, Lucien
> > Montaggioni, and many others (apologies for not giving all names) who
> > described how reefs were growing in last glacial cycle.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Vladimir Kosmynin
> >
> >
> > From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 3:15 PM
> > To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> > Cc: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com>;
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > Subject: Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> > All good points, Alina and Vladimir. I would add that guyots and other
> > seamounts are abundant particularly in the Pacific. You can easily see
> > loads of them in Google Earth. For those who would like to explore more,
> > I'd recommend the "Seamount catalogue" https://earthref.org/SC/<
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1LUde8_GTVxYlw8acBdULug9YUXyhubTAvzrv0iQLznIXJfP8I28gap9cFevgYQ6dE8T-kYkEjiVqXhYhrl3scCfSEb15JZnXBf5444t30kU98Yr4YyEfwBbpciVWtBnSwL90MhZEXwM1ueC3ZRR9o4wV-GNEHn7dxxOB22Xqse9svg3CSYL6zXG_7X15Qg2fjyf5GBpISCV4mSVGzXmWM6U3EcDUTVMNSHP8Yqy1KIPdDI2qwXP9zs3aiFK7Ck5treVq5D3MSPV4isibUOr-5FzsTxkxlhZ9oLV-YEdAJHFquxMoJw1DODlDIg2AU_vKHCHPZeYjfDMRfydvB5fPWw/https%3A%2F%2Fearthref.org%2FSC%2F
> >
> > You can get lots of info on seamounts there, and you will see that there
> is
> > a whole list of recent discoveries of new seamounts, it is a steady
> > stream. If memory serves, it includes some islands as well, probably
> just
> > smaller islands. It should still be possible to get it to show you a
> > contour map of each one, from which you may be able to see whether it
> has a
> > flat top or not. See their note that you'll need to use "advanced
> > search." One of the fun bits of info they provide is the volume of the
> > seamount. Their volume is often amazingly large, usually over 100 cubic
> > km, sometimes in the thousands.
> > I'm suddenly remembering that not long ago there was a big fuss
> about
> > the big announcement that a big portion of the ocean floor was being
> mapped
> > for the first time. First time?? No, not by a long shot. Take a look
> at
> > Google Earth and tell me the sea floor has not been mapped before. I'm
> old
> > enough to remember when National Geographic first published world maps
> that
> > included the sea floor, it was amazing. A long time ago, I don't
> remember
> > when. So this new study, surely is mapping some areas in more detail,
> with
> > higher resolution than they were mapped before. As seems to be so often
> > now, the headlines were greatly exaggerated. If you zoom in on Google
> > Earth, you will see areas of the sea floor that have much higher
> resolution
> > than other areas. That's great, but it's not mapping them for the first
> > time. In some areas the high resolution is in a straight band. That's
> the
> > track of a ship that was recording higher resolution multibeam sonar, I'd
> > bet. No ship can cover the whole ocean, but when a ship that has the
> sonar
> > is cruising to some location, they leave it on to gather data as they go.
> > Hence the straight bands of high resolution.
> > The Darwin Point that Grigg named, is where the growth rate of the
> > reef no longer is able to keep up with the rate of subsidence, which in
> the
> > Hawaiian-Emperor chain is because the chain is being carried slowly into
> > higher latitudes with colder water, slowing coral growth. If there is a
> > chain somewhere that is not being carried into colder water, it would be
> > predicted not to have a Darwin Point.
> > I agree with Valdimir that a flat top does not necessarily mean it
> > was a coral reef, and it may not be obvious from a topographic map
> whether
> > it was a coral reef on top or not. Also, interesting, it looks to me
> like
> > there are plenty of guyots in the tropics, where cold surface water could
> > not be the reason that they were unable to keep up with subsidence, since
> > near surface water is warm. They would be called "give up reefs" instead
> > of "keep up reefs" or "catch up reefs." So some couldn't keep up in
> waters
> > of the same temperature as others that did keep up. Why?
> > Cheers, Doug
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:46 AM Kosmynin, Vladimir <
> > Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov<mailto:Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov
> >>
> > wrote:
> > Hi Alina, great to hear from you.
> >
> > The bank that was discovered in the area of GBR would be a guyot only if
> > its volcanic nature is confirmed, which looks doubtful to me according to
> > tectonic position, but I can be wrong.
> > Guyots are not necessarily drowned reefs, as you correctly mentioned.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vladimir
> >
> > Vladimir N. Kosmynin, Ph.D.
> > Environmental Consultant
> > Beaches, Inlets and Ports Program
> > Division of Water Resource Management
> > Florida Department of Environmental Protection
> > 2600 Blair Stone Road, MS 3590 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400
> > e-mail: vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> > vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> > Tel: (850)245-7622
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com<mailto:
> > alina at cisme-instruments.com>>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 12:34 PM
> > To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> > Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>>; douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Subject: RE: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> > I have to check this article again for details, but it appears that the
> > newly found structure is technically a guyot, a flat top submerged
> > seamount. Guyots are usually volcanoes that are emergent when formed,
> then
> > get flattened as they subside below sea level by wave action and
> subaerial
> > erosion. If this happens in the tropics in an area favorable to coral
> reef
> > formation, you basically get the Darwinian atoll formation sequence. If
> > after the atoll stage the structure continues to subside, it becomes a
> > drowned reef like the many found to the NW of the Hawaiian Island chain.
> > Rick Grigg wrote extensively about all this and came up with the Darwin
> > Point as the latitude and depth at which coral reef growth can't keep up
> > with subsidence (or sea level rise). I am guessing that is the origin of
> > this newly found structure. I am pretty sure there are hundreds more out
> > there that humans haven't come across yet.
> >
> > In my opinion, they are just drowned reefs that will suffer the same fate
> > of any deeper reef as sea level and ocean temperatures continue to rise.
> > Again, a lot of hype by the press and people with little background in
> > coral reef geology (or marine geology in general). New seamount but not
> > novel or promising or different.
> >
> >
> >
> > CISME IS NOW SOLD BY QUBIT SYSTEMS;
> >
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> >
> > *************************************************************************
> > Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> > CISME Instruments LLC
> > 210 Braxlo Lane,
> > Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> > AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> > cell: 910-200-3913
> > Website:
> >
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> >
> >
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> > Videos: CISME Promotional Video 5:43 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1KmyPnTJ4c7xFxy30gAWO8_7lWFhfq43QHVIKmLjsMbD6l7nVk11aAfcSK2C5_SggEy_KJlBmaOKlJhF1v00XZjemdX-K0T-lio0D2xfo5fSIwVyklRnRcm932ltIo_NXv1rysRnlZi0ey8VIGU3L2eYB8dAFqTFBqSjxpXHrrAhMAz41vFw5YMIikvZbORPWkt9tv0gN6dbDTdRdOjZg0PChx8yyVTAWktEWIPMIbtdIcTvYfFMTRoUtFN2oZXABsCNgU33O3GcXBF8Ajn6NVGLpf7UdiU3Oq7YzqeRC_b2NyAqYOEdb-_316tCEl2RLHH8TtX_ympwUlmLCfrxF3Q/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVAYeR9qX71A%26t%3D6s
> > CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GMitL8BhEme3jeg3RG3tXtqhq6LvdZfXIW7IcPn7XaUgLUtTzGSWx_OzD4QewLSBomPG7GYnkADqSKef5PmMbHouBOtt-PTo-xczzg0a8ws2rlMFK34Yv6B341YirGQeVOVvauC9zKzhY5fBvjJ3YkUVW_OoogU2RvieUEej-R-r3QJkgAC0g2XJHT9nVefWj1RbEvJp3HyLlf4k26I2UgOQIyfudKubBTub64HGXF8DSA1dILteDxmAAXrwg_ICML09o0-KCgSgQm5Er77wq7AnuW_16LcWXaxrWUlW4ldkMKb4jFIlpuRqu6WyT65YamB_QGEqP_vQbt2A4uUpAw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFa4SqS7yC08
> > CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch 4:03 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/16tAGBYCKkpFDt3sULCA5sc_-urUlQz0aUIOsQfX7ebv9aoxxNzpJ9-aEtXSpyi94_v9iU0szKWmkudROwXIftoYwcax16sNfvnPvETOdYf_rPkRC2GjTxfHryi6FRVeO7NARMkobou2UsY_aenbMulKXVO8uMdYkPj_XC872RSFnFpnHxUG0_UsCuZaPR1h5nCWUwcuAki_Dov6FLOqCJYG7wmH5jTED9kbLcndAKvlZe1RwPY6Rg1OkGYT1By7MhdkzDZWDIpa4iKna-8YDgh2NxQATgDvEFxXUPz0pTGuqGL02ToniKtN-Bel8Rt170lYxghqeI6Uj5-1_vleVAg/https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FQCo3oixsDVA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> On Behalf Of Kosmynin, Vladimir
> > via Coral-List
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:34 PM
> > To: douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >
> > Subject: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> skyscraper
> >
> > Doug,
> > The news about 500 m tall "coral reef" runs everywhere in press/internet.
> > It is very interesting discovery, and I spent evening watching nice video
> > recorded from ROV. Just one comment, which would be in the stream of
> this
> > long conversation about origin of reefs and atolls, importance of
> > geomorphology, and appropriate use of terminology. Discovered relief
> > feature is not a reef; it is coral bank. The depth of 42 m on top of this
> > relief feature tells us that this is not a reef by definition. Somebody
> > would ask, if this bank used to be a coral reef in the past. Yes, when
> > sea level was around 42-45 m below present, it was a reef. Was it coral
> > reef or not can be answered by drilling and confirming if it was built or
> > at least capped on top by substantial (meters) growth of reef-building
> > corals. The origin of this relief feature would need to be studied to
> > state, for example, this this is submerged coral reef, and what it was
> > growing on.
> >
> > I think it was already mentioned, that there is no "deep-water" coral
> > reefs, or "mesophotic coral reefs" - these are all coral banks, by
> > definition.
> > I guess excessive use of term "coral reef" caused by the same desire to
> > attract attention, as was mentioned about "Darwin was wrong" article.
> >
> > Using the occasion, I would like to appreciate all who participated in
> the
> > discussion about origin of atolls and Darwin's work, and especially David
> > Blakeway for his advice to young scientists to read more old publications
> > (which is applicable also to quite a few of not so young scientists as
> > well).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Vladimir Kosmynin
> >
> >
> >
> > Message: 4
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:17:15 -1100
> >
> > From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com><mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>>>
> >
> > To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov><mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > <mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>>
> >
> > Subject: [Coral-List] new reef is tall
> >
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > <
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> > ><mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com>>>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> >
> >
> > Newly discovered reef is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kXYQikWQhsyy0Sbmq0_RER8yO-BGlw3-EpmG1L2oKVZO1qi60t2iaVmIqITZod8eSG9i7r2tCrZCiH6eTTA-xk6uDqYZnrDSKWhTJA8q4AwNDiqceqnlP-guNTN3jCbglgat3LWhMAOIiLalthKFfT3dnZ9jYV8aaZf7yivMseiOZSYhzC835XTl4R5-d1odJAx_lRx9kjPV9ssO8zvMdhRwkRQUVGLg9GsFymuVPsnmK-tUSXBIh149Rd7pE6GYn6bo8oX_MsuG861TnguOaz-hoIdXNkHMpljvw1-CIpZfno0-1nfj8gCHlvB9I5g6aWng0Ta_8uZi4PHZDsMesTLGKl3r63z9AmqHO8xifKQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencemag.org%2Fnews%2F2020%2F10%2Fnewly-discovered-reef-taller-skyscraper
> >
> >
> >
> > Australian scientists discover 500 meter tall coral reef in the Great
> > Barrier Reef- first to be discovered in over 120 years
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VEVZyzWv9953hsgqb0Hx8fSWcBcQGUSZSO-Bmooh92b9p_mtJqyb-UfA4jwqiTKe_QfnwSyBnJ6vBeDL8YrnnZ3RnTkKr2cKgaBerVE3WoVXd65zBSTzPS_jzOppudd76VDllVO2mQ2I_rhQ__GWe0hzNy2pWNVVERMAaCo8QO-oe_jcu4WxMw_8CE7Lbh2b_vIuXsW1In4m0dQc-a_28wkGFgNRIdRdoKu_uHZJYoitm4Mg10VUGyMZtcGTkSY9PHjn4_voBCu-T4Hlyo4SwBYYKit1kAproU7WqmkSNi_EMNrmhvAOw41ju4HvaHxaYRKOSWhfRk7oRFOXhVUTDg/https%3A%2F%2Fschmidtocean.org%2Faustralian-scientists-discover-500-meter-tall-coral-reef-in-the-great-barrier-reef-first-to-be-discovered-in-over-120-years%2F
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Doug
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> >
> >
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> >
> > [Dep Customer Survey]<
> > http://survey.dep.state.fl.us/?refemail=Vladimir.Kosmynin@FloridaDEP.gov
> <
> >
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1kD3IXm74ZBwIEf-AplMdxfmEAP_EAGykrQGtMGeiZLtQs2DPdMNKbrR-WAIsgT0qcYuO0ROPfb337ggus6c1JICFJGj_XW1qZvpD4YYwmN1bbkQS_noCOKQLCEYRPkNiPJ3Wu4NZdfMeEfgFykZizt8y4TtUVVRjq2h0zusr-1tbnBxlegcJEaNbEA0LChMLu2bunxfZPsFAxqP5A0lJzHj3Jr0pSP7Nh9CM6tPxClb3SIa-9DHlwHjp4K_QkGMa5bYjx_AR69HLV_Dkfgad4XF8GBqpmzdgWa_PBcE2MwnaR_OgVJvB3d9qRfOOBqaBNxpqNwO1kcOIcBf3knPtbA/http%3A%2F%2Fsurvey.dep.state.fl.us%2F%3Frefemail%3DVladimir.Kosmynin%40FloridaDEP.gov
> > >>
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> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
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--
Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
Oberlin OH 44074
(440) 935-4014
* "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 11:49:42 -1100
From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
To: Gregory Boland <g_boland at hotmail.com>
Cc: "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Coral Reef?
Message-ID:
<CAOEmEkEJ0SfeE=zwkgv=JW=__RLh8Qw5o5mURRjo1cwKhQcHhA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Good point. All boats have a draft much less than 20m deep, an aircraft
carrier has a draft of about 50 feet I believe and surely there are few if
any others that have a greater draft. Most boats have vastly less draft.
Do we only want to only call bioherms that get to within say, less than 10
feet of the surface "coral reefs"?? Or 5 feet or 2 feet? That would be
silly, surely.
On the other hand, surely these deep constructions are not the same as
the tropical shallow water ones. Do they have any species at all in
common?? I bet very few, they are in very different environments, both
light and temperature. One is built by a diverse assemblage of
zooxanthellate corals that is nearly a solid structure near its surface,
only in shallow, warm sunlit tropical waters. The other is built in much
deeper, dark, cold water that can be at high latitude like the fjords of
Norway, by a single azooxanthellate species for each construction and
usually consists of thin branches that are not filled in near the surface
of the construction.
I suggest that these two things are not the same thing, they are
quite different and separate. And thus it might be fitting to call them
different things. No? Do we call apples and oranges the same thing?
Chalk and cheese?
It's pretty obvious that reef flats, reef slopes, and the mesophotic
zones are commonly all parts of one structure with continuous ecosystem and
geological structure extending between them, and that shallow water
tropical coral reefs come in a wide variety of shapes, and there are
different biogeographic provinces such as the Indo-Pacific and Caribbean
and Brazil. Yet they share a lot in common, and are commonly called coral
reefs from the surface down to as far down as they extend. I suspect there
is little or no overlap in the depth ranges of shallow water tropical coral
reefs and the deep cold water coral bioherms. And no shallow tropical
coral reef extends in an unbroken ecosystem or geological structure to one
of these deep cold water azooxanthellate constructions. We do have a term
for geological constructions in the ocean produced by organisms that is a
more general category and includes all such structures no matter what
organism produces them, namely a "bioherm." And we distinguish oyster
reefs from worm reefs from coralline algae constructions, from shallow
tropical coral reefs. We don't call oyster reefs "coral reefs." just
because they are made by organisms in shallow water.
Surely, the things that are important are the reality of the
geological structure and the ecosystems, not whether a boat can hit them or
not. But, all shallow warm water coral reefs have the potential to reach
shallow depths typical of boats, and NO deep cold water azooxanthellate
bioherms do, isn't that correct?
Is it too much of a stretch to have different names for different
things? Isn't it a useful distinction?
Cheers, Doug
On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 10:28 AM Gregory Boland <g_boland at hotmail.com> wrote:
> All - I just responded to Alina Szmant privately who expressed the same
> view, that a coral reef can not be termed a coral reef unless it can be hit
> by a boat. This would remove tens of thousands of square miles of living
> "coral reef" from places like the Great Barrier Reef and reefs all over the
> world at depths below 20 m or so. This does not seem reasonable despite the
> dictionary's definition of "reef." Maybe not so simple. Do we want to
> define all coral reefs of the world below 20 m as bioherms? I'm not
> pressing for some deep-water *Lophelia *habitats to be officially called
> "coral reefs" but, seems like the use of a single criteria (or any other
> combination) for a definition should be applied to all situations.
>
> The final report on *Lophelia *habitats in the Gulf of Mexico goes into
> biodiversity in several respects.
> https://espis.boem.gov/final%20reports/5522.pdf
>
> One of the introductory statements in the above report used an older 1999
> reference, but said regarding deep-water coral habitats, "The diversity of
> the community on these reefs rivals the diversity of many tropical
> zooxanthellate coral reefs (Rogers 1999)." Granted the number of coral
> species as well as fish and mollusks is much lower than shallow coral
> reefs, but Rogers describes very similar diversity in a variety of other
> taxa. The total comparison picture would be quite complex. Rogers 1999:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alex_Rogers2/publication/264469316_The_Biology_of_Lophelia_pertusa_Linnaeus_1758_and_Other_Deep-Water_Reef-Forming_Corals_and_Impacts_from_Human_Activities/links/59f82e5ea6fdcc075ec7dab9/The-Biology-of-Lophelia-pertusa-Linnaeus-1758-and-Other-Deep-Water-Reef-Forming-Corals-and-Impacts-from-Human-Activities.pdf
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Greg
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 7, 2020 7:54 PM
> *To:* Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Gregory Boland <g_boland at hotmail.com>;
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>;
> Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov>
> *Subject:* Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> skyscraper
>
> All - I'm not sure whether these are analogous features, but Conrad
> Neumann described what sound similar in the Florida Straits at similar
> depths. I believe they also were dominated by *Lophelia* but I'll leave
> it to someone else to do the legwork there. He called tham, "lithoherms"
> because, from ALVIN, they looked to have significantly depositional
> characteristics even though they had obviously biotic material on their
> surfaces. If it seems like these might have similar origins, you should
> probably look up the original citation from the 70s or 80s.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Dennis
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 7:53 AM Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> That's simple. It does not meet the definition of a "reef." It does not
> reach anywhere near the surface. I realize that people commonly refer to
> such cold water "bioherms" as "reefs." Modern dictionaries are
> "descriptive" not "proscriptive." So they report what people say, not what
> they "should say" (which depends in part on who decides what "should"
> happen). If the modern dictionary process is used, the "reef" is whatever
> people use the term for. Certainly there is some similarity between deep
> cold water bioherms and shallow, warm water coral reefs. But the original
> meaning of "riff" (reef) is something hard and shallow that if you hit with
> a boat does damage to the boat. Language changes over time. But
> scientists try to be more specific and accurate and use words in ways
> different from the general public.
> There are no language police, and unlike for species names, no agreed
> on system for defining names. So anyone can use any word any way they
> want, and if listeners get the wrong idea, that's a problem for those
> speakers and listeners. They may well not get the wrong idea. Meantime,
> anyone who wants to can debate how they wish.
> I note that mesophotic corals also do not get near the surface, and
> those studying those carefully talk about "mesophotic coral ecosystems" NOT
> mesophotic reefs. I believe geologists would refer to these deep coral
> water constructions as "bioherms" not "reefs." I've argued before that we
> should distinguish coral reefs, which are geological structures and not
> themselves alive, and the coral reef ecosystems of living organisms on, in,
> and around the geological structure and which produce the geological
> structures. But people can, and will, do as they wish. I think
> standardized nomenclature can assist accurate communication, which is
> helpful.
> I also note that the popular press often refers to these deep cold
> water bioherms as being "diverse." My impression is that most such
> bioherms are constructed each by a single coral species, so the coral
> diversity is vastly lower than almost all shallow tropical coral reefs. I
> would be surprised if the other organisms associated with such bioherms are
> as diverse as they are on tropical coral reefs. I think the journalists
> assume they are diverse like shallow tropical coral reefs, I suspect they
> are not. Perhaps someone could shed light on that.
> Cheers, Doug
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM Gregory Boland via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Dear Kosynin,
> >
> > I would be interested to hear your opinion regarding your prior mention
> > that "there are no deep-water coral reefs" in consideration of a
> deep-water
> > Lophelia habitat that was studies during a BOEM/NOAA OER-funded study in
> > the Gulf of Mexico called Lophelia II. One spectacular site was named
> > Robert's Reef after the LSU professor who is also an author on the paper
> I
> > will be referencing. BOEM provided supplemental funding to do a number of
> > deep piston cores on the pinnacles of this feature (I'll refrain from
> > calling it a reef). One core of over 50 ft found continuous Lophelia
> > fragments to the bottom of the core representing growth back at least
> > 300,000 years using associated fossils etc. There were periods of
> no-growth
> > related to low sea stands (temperature related issues rather than water
> > depth). Just curious what part of the definition of a coral reef this
> > deep-water coral habitat does not meet.
> >
> > newspaper summary:
> >
> https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_43d1fd7a-1677-5a10-acfe-702895176119.html
> >
> > Paper (abstract):
> > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063717303916
> >
> > Lophelia II BOEM final report:
> >
> > https://espis.boem.gov/final%20reports/5522.pdf
> >
> >
> > The coral reef definition is certainly complicated (and sometimes
> > political) with one extreme that was pushed during some attempts to get
> the
> > Coral Reef Conservation Act reauthorized that merely required "skeletal
> > remains" of coral to define a "coral reef" and not even mentioning it had
> > to be underwater allowing something like the walls of the Alamo to be
> > described as a coral reef. The State of Florida currently has a similar
> > definition where no living reef-building corals are required to be
> present
> > to meet the definition of a "coral reef" in order to impose legal
> penalties
> > for groundings etc.
> >
> > Thanks for any consideration,
> >
> > Greg Boland
> > retired BOEM Biological Oceanographer
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on behalf of
> > Kosmynin, Vladimir via Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 4:19 AM
> > To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> > skyscraper
> >
> > Doug,
> >
> > There is no simple answer to your last question: why some reefs able to
> > ?keep up? or even ?catch up? with subsidence even, while others ?give up?
> > and become coral banks or just banks, even being in warm tropical waters.
> > Water temperatures is just one of numerous factors controlling coral reef
> > growth. Just a few of them below, far not all.
> >
> > Obviously, very important is the rate of subsidence, which would be a sum
> > of glacio-eustatic and local vertical tectonic movement. In each of
> three
> > Meltwater pulses (1A, 1B, 1C) which happened between 14600 yr ago and
> 7600
> > yr ago, the sea level rise was 4.5-5.0 m/100 yr (4.5-5.0 mm/yr) with
> total
> > 27.5 m rise in 7000 yr (~4 mm/yr or ~40 m/1000yr). If at the same time
> > happened tectonic subsidence, coral buildup hardly can keep up with rapid
> > subsidence, because average coral reef buildup in Holocene was 5-10
> m/1000
> > yr. That is why we do not know reefs that would keep up growing from the
> > time of the beginning of deglaciation (~22-20Ky ago), from about 100-130
> m
> > below present level. By far we know only one case, it is in French
> > Polynesia, where accumulated over 100 m of coral reef in the time of
> > deglaciation (if I am not mistaken, it is in Moorea, work of Pirazzoli,
> > Montaggioni and coauthors). Later, passing 7000 years ago, the rate of
> > glacio-eustatic sea level rise considerably slowed down, and that time
> most
> > of Holocene coral reefs could grow keeping up with sea level rise or
> > catching up from relatively shallow antecedent relief.
> >
> > Great role in the rate of reef-building/reef growth would play local set
> > of reef-building coral species. For example, if one Atlantic reef for
> some
> > reasons doesn?t have Acropora palmata, it wouldn?t be able to grow
> > vertically as fast as a reef with A. palmata, because few other main
> > reef-building species in the Atlantic do not have the same rate of growth
> > as A. palmata. Somebody would say that A. cervicornis can grow as fast if
> > not faster. Yes, but it would be able to build a reef only in unique
> > situation where A. cervicornis bush is not periodically turning to
> rubble.
> > Rear example of such reefs built by A. cervicornis (and kept up with
> rising
> > sea level) would be recently described by Vasil Zlatarski unusual type of
> > reefs in muddy waters of Gulf of Guacanayabo in Cuba.
> >
> > Of the other factors, very critical are antecedent relief (i.e. subaerial
> > relief occupied by reef-building corals during sea level
> rise/submergence)
> > and sedimentary environment (in worst case scenario the excess of
> sediments
> > can ?shut down? reef-building completely). Submergence of gentle slopes
> > with plenty of sediments would obviously restrict coral reef formation.
> On
> > the other end, very steep slops would not be able to hold large coral
> > accumulation and, I guess, you have seen sections of such slopes being
> > grown to overhangs, and saw some of them ultimately collapsed.
> >
> > Water clarity is a factor; as you know well, photosynthesis is very
> > important for the growth reef-building corals.
> >
> > In a short, there are several factors, and even in single atoll, one can
> > find one side successfully ?keeping up?, while the other is getting
> > submerged.
> >
> > We have number of great publications by coral reef geologists like Ian
> > McIntyre, Gene Shinn, Barbara Lidz, Edward Purdy, Paolo Pirazzoli, Lucien
> > Montaggioni, and many others (apologies for not giving all names) who
> > described how reefs were growing in last glacial cycle.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Vladimir Kosmynin
> >
> >
> > From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 3:15 PM
> > To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> > Cc: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com>;
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > Subject: Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> > All good points, Alina and Vladimir. I would add that guyots and other
> > seamounts are abundant particularly in the Pacific. You can easily see
> > loads of them in Google Earth. For those who would like to explore more,
> > I'd recommend the "Seamount catalogue" https://earthref.org/SC/<
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1LUde8_GTVxYlw8acBdULug9YUXyhubTAvzrv0iQLznIXJfP8I28gap9cFevgYQ6dE8T-kYkEjiVqXhYhrl3scCfSEb15JZnXBf5444t30kU98Yr4YyEfwBbpciVWtBnSwL90MhZEXwM1ueC3ZRR9o4wV-GNEHn7dxxOB22Xqse9svg3CSYL6zXG_7X15Qg2fjyf5GBpISCV4mSVGzXmWM6U3EcDUTVMNSHP8Yqy1KIPdDI2qwXP9zs3aiFK7Ck5treVq5D3MSPV4isibUOr-5FzsTxkxlhZ9oLV-YEdAJHFquxMoJw1DODlDIg2AU_vKHCHPZeYjfDMRfydvB5fPWw/https%3A%2F%2Fearthref.org%2FSC%2F
> >
> > You can get lots of info on seamounts there, and you will see that there
> is
> > a whole list of recent discoveries of new seamounts, it is a steady
> > stream. If memory serves, it includes some islands as well, probably
> just
> > smaller islands. It should still be possible to get it to show you a
> > contour map of each one, from which you may be able to see whether it
> has a
> > flat top or not. See their note that you'll need to use "advanced
> > search." One of the fun bits of info they provide is the volume of the
> > seamount. Their volume is often amazingly large, usually over 100 cubic
> > km, sometimes in the thousands.
> > I'm suddenly remembering that not long ago there was a big fuss
> about
> > the big announcement that a big portion of the ocean floor was being
> mapped
> > for the first time. First time?? No, not by a long shot. Take a look
> at
> > Google Earth and tell me the sea floor has not been mapped before. I'm
> old
> > enough to remember when National Geographic first published world maps
> that
> > included the sea floor, it was amazing. A long time ago, I don't
> remember
> > when. So this new study, surely is mapping some areas in more detail,
> with
> > higher resolution than they were mapped before. As seems to be so often
> > now, the headlines were greatly exaggerated. If you zoom in on Google
> > Earth, you will see areas of the sea floor that have much higher
> resolution
> > than other areas. That's great, but it's not mapping them for the first
> > time. In some areas the high resolution is in a straight band. That's
> the
> > track of a ship that was recording higher resolution multibeam sonar, I'd
> > bet. No ship can cover the whole ocean, but when a ship that has the
> sonar
> > is cruising to some location, they leave it on to gather data as they go.
> > Hence the straight bands of high resolution.
> > The Darwin Point that Grigg named, is where the growth rate of the
> > reef no longer is able to keep up with the rate of subsidence, which in
> the
> > Hawaiian-Emperor chain is because the chain is being carried slowly into
> > higher latitudes with colder water, slowing coral growth. If there is a
> > chain somewhere that is not being carried into colder water, it would be
> > predicted not to have a Darwin Point.
> > I agree with Valdimir that a flat top does not necessarily mean it
> > was a coral reef, and it may not be obvious from a topographic map
> whether
> > it was a coral reef on top or not. Also, interesting, it looks to me
> like
> > there are plenty of guyots in the tropics, where cold surface water could
> > not be the reason that they were unable to keep up with subsidence, since
> > near surface water is warm. They would be called "give up reefs" instead
> > of "keep up reefs" or "catch up reefs." So some couldn't keep up in
> waters
> > of the same temperature as others that did keep up. Why?
> > Cheers, Doug
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:46 AM Kosmynin, Vladimir <
> > Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov<mailto:Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov
> >>
> > wrote:
> > Hi Alina, great to hear from you.
> >
> > The bank that was discovered in the area of GBR would be a guyot only if
> > its volcanic nature is confirmed, which looks doubtful to me according to
> > tectonic position, but I can be wrong.
> > Guyots are not necessarily drowned reefs, as you correctly mentioned.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vladimir
> >
> > Vladimir N. Kosmynin, Ph.D.
> > Environmental Consultant
> > Beaches, Inlets and Ports Program
> > Division of Water Resource Management
> > Florida Department of Environmental Protection
> > 2600 Blair Stone Road, MS 3590 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400
> > e-mail: vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> > vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> > Tel: (850)245-7622
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com<mailto:
> > alina at cisme-instruments.com>>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 12:34 PM
> > To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> > Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>>; douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > Subject: RE: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> > I have to check this article again for details, but it appears that the
> > newly found structure is technically a guyot, a flat top submerged
> > seamount. Guyots are usually volcanoes that are emergent when formed,
> then
> > get flattened as they subside below sea level by wave action and
> subaerial
> > erosion. If this happens in the tropics in an area favorable to coral
> reef
> > formation, you basically get the Darwinian atoll formation sequence. If
> > after the atoll stage the structure continues to subside, it becomes a
> > drowned reef like the many found to the NW of the Hawaiian Island chain.
> > Rick Grigg wrote extensively about all this and came up with the Darwin
> > Point as the latitude and depth at which coral reef growth can't keep up
> > with subsidence (or sea level rise). I am guessing that is the origin of
> > this newly found structure. I am pretty sure there are hundreds more out
> > there that humans haven't come across yet.
> >
> > In my opinion, they are just drowned reefs that will suffer the same fate
> > of any deeper reef as sea level and ocean temperatures continue to rise.
> > Again, a lot of hype by the press and people with little background in
> > coral reef geology (or marine geology in general). New seamount but not
> > novel or promising or different.
> >
> >
> >
> > CISME IS NOW SOLD BY QUBIT SYSTEMS;
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1BeFCwIAMLty1Xvlv-OWtaLbyTr75zkUrpwX07SbcCdKdu2h4CkX6nNLmyh6AnRyNHh_KsLSUyNbDmeE64XraEvj8WohIqzxsZbCXFyPdrYuLRG4mFmAsMarQf0dpgRUOKNRJbPkTyXHR-HV1gEgBqeNFv-Uuakek87qMR0aZdEyXLB19UYnUvWHU8QOTfjT_EG3ioLAxtOagemCOw2CJub5MdWOZlBTshpsk9gWtBX3CdaS4dtgE7VaWkE_RHpEO278NIZLsg0DTQM49hDslDKy0GnJqOcV4O6pRXza7LK841ouz8FhxRi8jXT2V3LfbeFXHRouLQrSljmP1M6fkNg/https%3A%2F%2Fqubitbiology.com%2Fcisme%2F
> >
> > *************************************************************************
> > Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> > CISME Instruments LLC
> > 210 Braxlo Lane,
> > Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> > AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> > cell: 910-200-3913
> > Website:
> >
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1d7FEK9NAkjxGyq_OgElCbDcfmFHtzINa4maKzlzRROFNsQl7RW8yR6-6L2IlbWrW5wGJ0G15J3jRy3rI3Ihw7fGXPVwysHbYokYAADYCA7b6RjnzcCGcO_kxaSJ7f1eILwOTULAP8tzWANXhipbi8UZjb9a9YwU21s4lGthDWpGvhi3QWE0rY9argpcWvX8oRAOC3jxbX9sE5ExK0YkXp14sQnAE4bmhZav8ZXg7wo-J5Ya8u4ICpygG8d4tBBoe_36aXWY1l-_7vlvHxuVlYCQpx3PnDVnras37PtYoTIpMVsH2znM61gqKdUy_1gPOUIQyBJFNKjwV-ZWhNaIrIw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cisme-instruments.com
> >
> >
> > **********************************************************
> > Videos: CISME Promotional Video 5:43 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1KmyPnTJ4c7xFxy30gAWO8_7lWFhfq43QHVIKmLjsMbD6l7nVk11aAfcSK2C5_SggEy_KJlBmaOKlJhF1v00XZjemdX-K0T-lio0D2xfo5fSIwVyklRnRcm932ltIo_NXv1rysRnlZi0ey8VIGU3L2eYB8dAFqTFBqSjxpXHrrAhMAz41vFw5YMIikvZbORPWkt9tv0gN6dbDTdRdOjZg0PChx8yyVTAWktEWIPMIbtdIcTvYfFMTRoUtFN2oZXABsCNgU33O3GcXBF8Ajn6NVGLpf7UdiU3Oq7YzqeRC_b2NyAqYOEdb-_316tCEl2RLHH8TtX_ympwUlmLCfrxF3Q/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVAYeR9qX71A%26t%3D6s
> > CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GMitL8BhEme3jeg3RG3tXtqhq6LvdZfXIW7IcPn7XaUgLUtTzGSWx_OzD4QewLSBomPG7GYnkADqSKef5PmMbHouBOtt-PTo-xczzg0a8ws2rlMFK34Yv6B341YirGQeVOVvauC9zKzhY5fBvjJ3YkUVW_OoogU2RvieUEej-R-r3QJkgAC0g2XJHT9nVefWj1RbEvJp3HyLlf4k26I2UgOQIyfudKubBTub64HGXF8DSA1dILteDxmAAXrwg_ICML09o0-KCgSgQm5Er77wq7AnuW_16LcWXaxrWUlW4ldkMKb4jFIlpuRqu6WyT65YamB_QGEqP_vQbt2A4uUpAw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFa4SqS7yC08
> > CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch 4:03 min
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/16tAGBYCKkpFDt3sULCA5sc_-urUlQz0aUIOsQfX7ebv9aoxxNzpJ9-aEtXSpyi94_v9iU0szKWmkudROwXIftoYwcax16sNfvnPvETOdYf_rPkRC2GjTxfHryi6FRVeO7NARMkobou2UsY_aenbMulKXVO8uMdYkPj_XC872RSFnFpnHxUG0_UsCuZaPR1h5nCWUwcuAki_Dov6FLOqCJYG7wmH5jTED9kbLcndAKvlZe1RwPY6Rg1OkGYT1By7MhdkzDZWDIpa4iKna-8YDgh2NxQATgDvEFxXUPz0pTGuqGL02ToniKtN-Bel8Rt170lYxghqeI6Uj5-1_vleVAg/https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FQCo3oixsDVA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> On Behalf Of Kosmynin, Vladimir
> > via Coral-List
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:34 PM
> > To: douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >
> > Subject: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> skyscraper
> >
> > Doug,
> > The news about 500 m tall "coral reef" runs everywhere in press/internet.
> > It is very interesting discovery, and I spent evening watching nice video
> > recorded from ROV. Just one comment, which would be in the stream of
> this
> > long conversation about origin of reefs and atolls, importance of
> > geomorphology, and appropriate use of terminology. Discovered relief
> > feature is not a reef; it is coral bank. The depth of 42 m on top of this
> > relief feature tells us that this is not a reef by definition. Somebody
> > would ask, if this bank used to be a coral reef in the past. Yes, when
> > sea level was around 42-45 m below present, it was a reef. Was it coral
> > reef or not can be answered by drilling and confirming if it was built or
> > at least capped on top by substantial (meters) growth of reef-building
> > corals. The origin of this relief feature would need to be studied to
> > state, for example, this this is submerged coral reef, and what it was
> > growing on.
> >
> > I think it was already mentioned, that there is no "deep-water" coral
> > reefs, or "mesophotic coral reefs" - these are all coral banks, by
> > definition.
> > I guess excessive use of term "coral reef" caused by the same desire to
> > attract attention, as was mentioned about "Darwin was wrong" article.
> >
> > Using the occasion, I would like to appreciate all who participated in
> the
> > discussion about origin of atolls and Darwin's work, and especially David
> > Blakeway for his advice to young scientists to read more old publications
> > (which is applicable also to quite a few of not so young scientists as
> > well).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Vladimir Kosmynin
> >
> >
> >
> > Message: 4
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:17:15 -1100
> >
> > From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com><mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>>>
> >
> > To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov><mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > <mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>>
> >
> > Subject: [Coral-List] new reef is tall
> >
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > <
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> > ><mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > CAOEmEkGx3G7pYuWLmH1t-Wt7Q_5h5cYinYQd8ASupje4bB6QJg at mail.gmail.com>>>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> >
> >
> > Newly discovered reef is taller than a skyscraper
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kXYQikWQhsyy0Sbmq0_RER8yO-BGlw3-EpmG1L2oKVZO1qi60t2iaVmIqITZod8eSG9i7r2tCrZCiH6eTTA-xk6uDqYZnrDSKWhTJA8q4AwNDiqceqnlP-guNTN3jCbglgat3LWhMAOIiLalthKFfT3dnZ9jYV8aaZf7yivMseiOZSYhzC835XTl4R5-d1odJAx_lRx9kjPV9ssO8zvMdhRwkRQUVGLg9GsFymuVPsnmK-tUSXBIh149Rd7pE6GYn6bo8oX_MsuG861TnguOaz-hoIdXNkHMpljvw1-CIpZfno0-1nfj8gCHlvB9I5g6aWng0Ta_8uZi4PHZDsMesTLGKl3r63z9AmqHO8xifKQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencemag.org%2Fnews%2F2020%2F10%2Fnewly-discovered-reef-taller-skyscraper
> >
> >
> >
> > Australian scientists discover 500 meter tall coral reef in the Great
> > Barrier Reef- first to be discovered in over 120 years
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VEVZyzWv9953hsgqb0Hx8fSWcBcQGUSZSO-Bmooh92b9p_mtJqyb-UfA4jwqiTKe_QfnwSyBnJ6vBeDL8YrnnZ3RnTkKr2cKgaBerVE3WoVXd65zBSTzPS_jzOppudd76VDllVO2mQ2I_rhQ__GWe0hzNy2pWNVVERMAaCo8QO-oe_jcu4WxMw_8CE7Lbh2b_vIuXsW1In4m0dQc-a_28wkGFgNRIdRdoKu_uHZJYoitm4Mg10VUGyMZtcGTkSY9PHjn4_voBCu-T4Hlyo4SwBYYKit1kAproU7WqmkSNi_EMNrmhvAOw41ju4HvaHxaYRKOSWhfRk7oRFOXhVUTDg/https%3A%2F%2Fschmidtocean.org%2Faustralian-scientists-discover-500-meter-tall-coral-reef-in-the-great-barrier-reef-first-to-be-discovered-in-over-120-years%2F
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Doug
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> >
> >
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> >
> > [Dep Customer Survey]<
> > http://survey.dep.state.fl.us/?refemail=Vladimir.Kosmynin@FloridaDEP.gov
> <
> >
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1kD3IXm74ZBwIEf-AplMdxfmEAP_EAGykrQGtMGeiZLtQs2DPdMNKbrR-WAIsgT0qcYuO0ROPfb337ggus6c1JICFJGj_XW1qZvpD4YYwmN1bbkQS_noCOKQLCEYRPkNiPJ3Wu4NZdfMeEfgFykZizt8y4TtUVVRjq2h0zusr-1tbnBxlegcJEaNbEA0LChMLu2bunxfZPsFAxqP5A0lJzHj3Jr0pSP7Nh9CM6tPxClb3SIa-9DHlwHjp4K_QkGMa5bYjx_AR69HLV_Dkfgad4XF8GBqpmzdgWa_PBcE2MwnaR_OgVJvB3d9qRfOOBqaBNxpqNwO1kcOIcBf3knPtbA/http%3A%2F%2Fsurvey.dep.state.fl.us%2F%3Frefemail%3DVladimir.Kosmynin%40FloridaDEP.gov
> > >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
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> > https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
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>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 08:17:05 +0800
From: David Blakeway <fathom5marineresearch at gmail.com>
To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] For graduate and undergraduate coral reef
scientists
Message-ID:
<CAMAf13qETwcqBn4X+uwzi6nZqhds_vbDr2qBT508QiRcUqygfw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Gene Shinn's ?1 ton of scientific reprints heading to Mount Trashmore is a
significant loss. We need a coral reef Project Gutenberg to stop this
happening. Scanning and saving it to ReefBase would have been a big job but
a no-brainer investment in terms of ROI. Unfortunately we will run into
copyright problems making it all universally accessible.
Respect to all the forward-thinking libraries and non-profit organisations
who *are* taking on such projects.
On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:15 PM Alina Szmant via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Apropos seminal papers that every wanna-be coral reef ecologist and
> physiological ecologist should have read, I want to recommend the following
> paper
>
> Howard T. Odum and Eugene P. Odum, 1955: Trophic Structure and
> Productivity of a Windward Coral Reef Community on Eniwetok Atoll
> Ecological Monographs Vol. 25, No. 3 (Jul., 1955), pp. 291-320 (30 pages)
> Published By: Wiley
> DOI: 10.2307/1943285
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/1943285
>
> I used to have my coral reef ecology students read this paper at the end
> of the semester when hopefully they had a better grasp of much of the more
> recent literature and the variety of topics covered in my course. A final
> exam question I used was what topics/questions addressed by the Odum
> brothers had been updated with further study, which results stood the test
> of time, and which were overturned by investigation using more modern
> techniques than they had available to them. There are few aspects of coral
> reef ecology the young Odums didn't address in this monograph after
> spending two months living on Eniwetak. I happened to get to know Howard
> when he lived in PR during the radiation study they did in El Verde during
> the 1960s. Brilliant man and he also taught me how to understand football
> (his son and my brother went to the same school).
>
> Alina
>
> CISME IS NOW SOLD BY QUBIT SYSTEMS; https://qubitbiology.com/cisme/
>
> *************************************************************************
> Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> CISME Instruments LLC
> 210 Braxlo Lane,
> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> cell: 910-200-3913
> Website: www.cisme-instruments.com
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> On Behalf Of
> Tomas via Coral-List
> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 2:54 PM
> To: David Blakeway <fathom5marineresearch at gmail.com>
> Cc: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] For graduate and undergraduate coral reef
> scientists
>
> I appreciate the comments made by David regarding the value of historical
> literature. I was fortunate enough to work on a project in Indonesia that
> gave me an opportunity to dig into historical literature, and it was a
> revelation to find just how much has been shelved and forgotten. David?s
> comment about the Dutch scientists is a good example.
> I was actually able to use Vervey (1931) Secchi disk data (converted to
> K) to demonstrate a strong relationship between turbidity and the maximum
> depth of the living reef, which suggested that the maximum depth of the
> functional coral reef community was significantly reduced since 1929. It
> was the historical information from the 1920s that made it possible to
> theorize that the decline of the coral reefs in Jakarta Bay was linked to
> eutrophication. The study was presented at:
>
> Ginsburg, R. N. (Compiler), 1994. Proceeding of the Colloquium on Global
> Aspects of Coral Reefs? Health, Hazards and History, 1993. Rosenstiel
> School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, University of Miami.
>
> Too bad that Bob Ginsburg?s compilation is not more widely accessible to
> the scientific coral reef community. Perhaps RSMAS can do something about
> it?
>
> Anyone interested in the Jakarta Bay coral reef paper can access it
> through:
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284877475_Case_histories_a_historical_perspective_of_the_natural_and_anthropogenic_impacts_in_the_Indonesian_Archipelago_with_a_focus_on_the_Kepulauan_Seribu_Java_Sea_Colloquium_on_Global_Aspects_of_Coral_Reefs?_sg=3jYI1H-EbDHabny5xg31uSxkTvvmOibyQLy-pIx0FBeqBSMrk2jN9vftKelciu0U4pVYMArbgIm6w-nFTyF7VrO5458a-uIXxgfHWmn-.mXCOHFn0uNC2czXM3IulYESvxSBmokzafcaDWeQBJ_wKlZmVK9ztCLt-1EHuUNocttM9dj4sL5501GnDVKHQnQ
>
> To follow up on David?s comments about coral reefs in turbid environments
> I would like to suggest to anyone who is interested to work on coral
> communities in marginal environments to have a look at Bangladesh. Located
> about 200 km south of the largest river delta in the world, the
> Ganges-Brahmaputra-Meghna Delta) lies Narikel Jinjira (aka St. Martin?s
> Island). This small sedimentary island is surrounded by a rocky reef that
> supports a diverse coral community (66 scleractinian coral species), but no
> carbonate reefal buildup. It is a fascinating place and yet has receives
> very little attention thus far from the international scientific coral reef
> community. There have been recent (and numerous past) papers published on
> the ?coral reefs of St. Martin?s Island? yet there are no coral reefs to be
> described. It seems that early studies on coral fragments that were found
> on the beaches of the island created a myth of the ?Coral Island?
> surrounded by coral reefs.
> Hopefully more studies that will be published in reputable journals will
> be able to expose and put an end to that myth.
>
> Anyone interested to learn more about Narikel Jinjira can visit:
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304077895_MANAGEMENT_PLAN_FOR_CORAL_RESOURCES_OF_NARIKEL_JINJIRA_St_Martin's_Island?_sg=FB2VsUS1_7EDQE8lsGYl1aL2iR4ItUsd5m5_VSNo6UQe3F4Ztx85FoxH9bIlL13gM4RGHZH_wVWNZHM-vbpcHc1-8hnBDd8lRf6rX2GK.nP-_0ASFKV0QuSoYukkIVCBEOfgh2rvLpmfQxFaNWPy9LA6Tf3gmeFFwsvlPuFQl36SGHai3VKlPL-QcBN3zkA
>
> Anyone interested to get contacts in Bangladesh to look at collaborative
> projects on Narikal Jinjira please let me know and I can provide you with
> more contact information.
>
> Tom
>
> On 2020-11-06 06:12, David Blakeway via Coral-List wrote:
> > I?d like to follow up on our discussion about the value of historic
> > literature by providing some examples. Actually, I haven?t found any
> > examples of historic literature generating new research, but this is
> > telling because there are plenty that should have. One topic already
> > mentioned by Tomas is coral colonisation and reef development in
> > turbid muddy habitats. It is now known, through research in North
> > Queensland and elsewhere over the last three decades, that coral reefs
> > are growing spectacularly well in such habitats, refuting the
> > clear-water coral reef paradigm. However, in publications through
> > 1890-1931, the Dutch researchers de Sluiter, Umbgrove and Verwey had
> > already completely described the phenomenon, including the inference
> > that corals may be obtaining nutrition from the turbid water.
> >
> > Another example is the recent discovery of coral reef hypoxia and
> > tropical dead zones by Altieri et al. (2017). This is a great piece of
> > work that has sparked multiple research programs. But the field
> > *should* have begun with Verwey (again!, 1931) whose comprehensive
> > reef surveys and lab experiments showed that, in his words: ??*the
> > oxygen consumption of a reef can be so considerable that the water
> > around it may become deprived of a large part of its oxygen.*? and
> > ??*the quantity of oxygen, present in the water, must often be the
> > limiting factor in reef growth*.?
> >
> > I will emphasise here that, although I obviously have an interest in
> > historic coral reef literature, I?ve only read a fraction of it, and
> > nothing in other languages. The obvious inference is that there are
> > many more ground-breaking ideas to be rediscovered and that, at least
> > in older fields such as ecology, *the best way forward is to look
> > back*. There are also clear implications for newer fields; an
> > important one being the recognition that some of today?s ideas will be
> > tomorrow?s undiscovered gems. How do great ideas slip away undetected?
> > No doubt there are several reasons, but I?m pretty sure the present
> > H-index-driven blizzard of publications isn?t helping.
> >
> > For students reading this, especially those interested in reef
> > ecology, I have an agenda in presenting the two examples above and
> > it?s this: in both cases the phenomenon is expressed in reef
> > geomorphology. In the turbid muddy reefs example, these reefs often
> > colonise the seaward edges of sedimentary structures such as delta
> > lobes (see India?s Gulf of Kachchh for some awesome specimens). Deltas
> > are, obviously, turbid muddy environments, and it?s extremely unlikely
> > there?s any hard substrate beneath the reefs because deltas are built
> > of sediment. So straight away, from geomorphology alone, you can
> > deduce that coral reefs are thriving (or at least
> > existing)
> > in turbid water, and that they have colonised unconsolidated sediment,
> > not rock.
> >
> > The hypoxia example is more complex because in this case the reef
> > doesn?t adopt the underlying morphology, it builds the morphology
> > itself. At least that is what I think. You can see my reasoning in
> > this preprint:
> > https://peerj.com/preprints/26794/ (critical feedback appreciated).
> > This
> > self-constructing aspect of reefs is interesting because it
> > potentially allows you to derive aspects of local-scale ecology from
> > large-scale reef geomorphology?reef geomorphology becomes a symbolic
> > language, conveying ecological information. I would love to see young
> > ecologists start decoding this information! If you?re interested, but
> > concerned that you don?t know enough geology, don?t worry. Geological
> > text can be dry and dense, with lots of jargon (like ecology), but
> > conceptually it is not difficult. In fact, perhaps there?s no such
> > thing as coral reef geology, it?s just ecology plus time (just trying
> > to get a bite here :)
> >
> > Altieri AH, Harrison SB, Seemann J, Collin R, Diaz RJ, Knowlton N.
> > 2017.
> > Tropical dead zones and mass mortalities on coral reefs. Proceedings
> > of the National Academy of Sciences. 114:3660?3665.
> > https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1621517114
> >
> > *Verwey*, J, *1931*. *Coral reef* studies. II. The *depth* of *coral
> > reefs* in
> > relation to their *oxygen*. consumption and the penetration of light
> > in water. Treubia, 13(2): 169-198
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