[Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast
Risk, Michael
riskmj at mcmaster.ca
Thu Jan 25 23:28:48 UTC 2024
Hello Austin.
Hard to be optimistic, but it's Rabbie Burns' Day, so I will fortify
myself (Balvenie 14 y.o.) and attempt to answer your question.
Our work now is (gasp!) >25 years old. I have not kept up with the
field and am not a real oceanographer in any event, so bear with me.
The corals we analysed are solitary-Desmophyllum-unlike the Lophelia
that is found all over the place. (In fact, it could be argued that
Lophelia pertusa is the most widespread benthic critter on the planet.)
It is possible, although fiendishly difficult, to get sequential data
from a Desmophyllum, something which is virtually impossible with
Lophelia (Lazier et al, 1999, Lethaia v. 32).
We spent a colossal amount of money on high-precision 14C dates, and
are confident of our stratigraphy. What astonished us was the rapidity
with which full-on deglaciation could switch over to a pseudo-glacial
event. Less than 4 years. Note that here I refer to the time required
for the turnaround, not the time required to achieve final Y-D
conditions. Nonetheless.
After many years watching the decline/demise of coral reefs, I am not
easily depressed or frightened, but I must admit the Ditlevson et al
paper (which you cite) scared the feces out of me.
The Younger Dryas was not really a global event-impacts were mostly
restricted to western Europe, which was plunged into mini-glacial
conditions for about 1,000 years.
There is talk of the collapse of the Gulf Stream. That is unlikely to
have happened. The excess heat in the Caribbean Basin was always going
to be thrown out somewhere-instead of going up and to the east and
allowing palm trees in Ireland, it probably went straight across, and
made miserable conditions in West Africa even worse. WA is one of the
places on the globe where the 35-degree/wet bulb limit will be exceeded
soon, meaning humans simply cannot survive there.
We were unable to speculate on where the GS went during the Y-D,
because of the dearth 25 years ago of good paleoclimate records from
Africa. Those smarter than I may have newer information.
And my Balvenie has just run out, requiring immediate attention. I hope
this is of some help-I wish I knew more.
Mike
__________________________________________________________________
From: Austin Bowden-Kerby <abowdenkerby at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2024 2:27 PM
To: Risk, Michael <riskmj at mcmaster.ca>
Cc: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>; William Precht
<william.precht at gmail.com>; Coral-List Subscribers
<coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral
reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast
You don't often get email from abowdenkerby at gmail.com. [1]Learn why
this is important
Caution: External email.
Thanks for this addition to the discussion Mike,
" We managed to get a climate record from deep-water corals from off
the coast of Newfoundland, which is relevant to-day. We found that
during the onset of the Younger Dryas, the turnaround from full-on
deglaciation to a widespread cooling took less than 4 years. This was
driven by a meltwater event that basically shut down/diverted the Gulf
Stream. (Smith et al, 1997, Nature v 386)." Another study also
details this record of AMOC collapse: Douarin, M., M. Elliot, S. R.
Noble, S. G. Moreton, D. Long, D. Sinclair, L.-A. Henry, and J. M.
Roberts (2016), North Atlantic ecosystem sensitivity to Holocene shifts
in Meridional Overturning Circulation, Geophys. Res.
Lett., 43, 291-298. [2]https://blogs.agu.org/geospace/2016/01/13/12833
/
I find this of extreme interest- that these deep water corals record
ocean overturning circulation collapse which happened 12K years ago,
and that it was so rapid. The rapid melting event lowered the salinity
of Arctic waters which in turn prevented the formation and downwelling
of hypersaline super-cold deep bottom water. There was quite a stir
created last July due to the publication of a new modelling study which
indicated a 95% confidence interval that the AMOC collapse would happen
by 2095: Ditlevsen, P., Ditlevsen, S. Warning of a forthcoming
collapse of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation. Nat
Commun 14, 4254 (2023).
[3]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-39810-w
My question is did this refreeze of the Arctic about 13K years ago save
the planet from a hot-house climate and an associated increase in sea
level of >100M which would have happened if a massive release of
methane from melting tundra had happened? Isn't this which what we are
potentially facing now? Is this part of a normal planetary feedback
system which kicks in? And might the 15% reduction in AMOC detected
in 2018 be
strengthening? [4]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0006-5
Evidence: NOAA data indicates that sea surface temperature increased
at an average rate of 0.14DEGF per decade from 1901 through 2020.
However in 2023, there was a sudden and unexplained jump of about 0.7C,
(>5 standard deviations above the mean), which puts us at 1.54C above
the pre-industrial mean.
[5]https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/sst_daily/ The earlier
hypotheses blaming the Tonga eruption, or sulfur dioxide emission
reductions from the banning of high-sulfur fuel in shipping, both of
which have been debunked, leaving me wondering if early AMOC shut down
could be the explanation?
According to the models, AMOC collapse would warm the southern
hemisphere while it cools the northern hemisphere, and vast changes in
ocean currents would result in sudden sea level changes. How might
this impact the planet's coral reefs? If anyone doubts that we are
already over the tipping point, please go to the University of Boston
Climate Reanalyzer site, which has multiple data sets updated
daily. [6]https://climatereanalyzer.org/ The massive and unexplained
ocean heating started in March 2023, and only several months later
spread to the atmosphere.
I frankly never thought I would live to see this day, and am rather
surprised that so few in the scientific community are aware of what is
unfolding before us.
Regards,
Austin
Austin Bowden-Kerby, PhD
Corals for Conservation, Fiji
[7]https://www.corals4conservation.org
Publication on C4C's coral-focused climate change adaptation
strategies: [8]https://www.mdpi.com/2673-1924/4/1/2/pdf
Film on our "Reefs of Hope" coral restoration for climate change
adaptation
strategies: [9]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0lqKciXAA
[10]https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive
-coral-bleaching/
Virus-free.[11]www.avast.com
On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:08AM Risk, Michael via Coral-List
<[12]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
Good day, all.
I was going to let this slide without comment, because, after
all, do
we need yet another demonstration that people don't read the
older
literature if that might obscure the brilliance of their latest
discovery? But I thought some perspective might be appropriate.
We have, of course, known about deep-water corals for a very long
time.
People have been dredging up Lophelia forever. There seems not to
have
been a great deal of interest in them until the mid-1990's. We
managed
to get a climate record from deep-water corals from off the coast
of
Newfoundland, which is relevant to-day. We found that during the
onset
of the Younger Dryas, the turnaround from full-on deglaciation to
a
widespread cooling took less than 4 years. This was driven by a
meltwater event that basically shut down/diverted the Gulf
Stream.
(Smith et al, 1997, Nature v 386).
It is worth mentioning that the corals we worked on were part of
a much
larger haul, dredged up by the geophysicists. The corals
languished in
storage for years at the Bedford Institute until some bright
spark
said, Chuck 'em out. Several bucketloads were trashed, until
someone
working in Dale Buckley's lab contacted me.
Word leaked out about our results even before the Nature paper,
and we
were invited to a workshop at Lamont. That certainly got things
buzzing, with Wally Broeker calling deep corals "the New Climate
Archive."
We were then invited to attend a NOAA-sponsored workshop in
Ireland, on
the use of corals in climate work.
In short (wrap this up, Mike!): No, that discovery wasn't
especially
momentous, and it would be sporting to accept that much of the
interest
in deep-water corals emanates from work done by your neighbours
to the
north.
Mike
__________________________________________________________________
From: Coral-List <[13]coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on
behalf of
William Precht via Coral-List
<[14]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2024 8:18 PM
To: Dennis Hubbard <[15]dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
Cc: Coral-List Subscribers <[16]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea
coral
reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast
Caution: External email.
Hi Denny
I found your note interesting. And I believe it wasn't a meeting
in
Bermuda but the SEPM Quaternary Reef Workshop I ran in the mid-
2000s
where both you and Conrad gave talks.
Reading this article and manuscript was an insult to the memory
of both
Conrad Neumann and Chuck Messing and all that they did throughout
their
careers on these Lophelia ecosystems. Conrad Neumann gave a talk
in a
session I led and actually predicted this discovery. In fact,
both he
and
Chuck Messing would say "each time we survey a new area we find
more
and
more deep-water coral habitat". Back in the mid 2000s they had
already
identified an area of deep-water lithoherms that stretched
further than
the
entire length of the Florida Reef Tract.
Now with new and better deep-water remote sensing technology
and
hundreds
of additional submersible and ROV dives they've extended it up to
South
Carolina - while it is a very significant discovery made by a
team of
dedicated scientists - the article and media release by NOAA just
drips
with hyperbole and self adulation.
While they reference a chapter Chuck Messing wrote for the book "
Coral
Reefs of the USA" I found the background scholarship poor.
I wonder what John Reed thinks about this "new discovery" as he
too was
one
of the early pioneers on these deep-water Lophelia corals.
Nice job, they just forgot on whose shoulders they were standing.
Bill
Btw - Here are a few references on the topic
Biozonation of deep-water lithoherms and associated hardgrounds
in the
northeastern Straits of Florida
<[1][17]https://www.jstor.org/stable/3514994>
CG *Messing*, AC *Neumann*, JC Lang - Palaios, 1990 - JSTOR
... We recognize three faunal zones on these mounds: a *Coral*
Zone
(Lophelia
prolifera) restricted to the upcurrent end; a Zoanthid Zone
(?Gerardia
*Deep*-*water coral reefs *of the *United States*
<[2][18]https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6847-8_
21>
CG *Messing*, JK Reed
<[3][19]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en
&oi=sra
>, SD
Brooke, SW Ross
<[4][20]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=tLmofCkAAAAJ&hl=en
&oi=sra
> - *Coral
Reefs *of the *USA*, 2008 - Springer
... pertusa lithoherms and mounds reported by *Neumann*et al.
(1977),
...
patches of *deep**sea* *corals* are often smaller than at other
sites.
The
bottom is
Habitat characterization, distribution, and areal extent of
*deep*-*sea
coral *ecosystems off Florida, southeastern *USA*
<[5][21]https://bioone.org/journals/caribbean-journal-of-science/vol
ume-47/
issue-1/cjos.v47i1.a3/Habitat-Characterization-Distribution-and-Area
l-E
xtent-of-Deep-sea-Coral/10.18475/cjos.v47i1.a3.short>
JK Reed
<[6][22]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en
&oi=sra
>, C
*Messing*, BK Walker
<[7][23]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en
&oi=sra
>, S
Brooke... - Caribbean Journal of ..., 2013 - BioOne
... dated mud mounds but are also capped with *coral*habitat
(*Neumann*
et
al. 1977). The ... revealing coverage with the densest growth of
*Lophelia*
*coral* thickets that we have found in
Comparison of *deep*-*water coral reefs *and lithoherms off
southeastern
*USA*
<[8][24]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1016593018389>
JK Reed
<[9][25]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en
&oi=sra
> -
Hydrobiologia, 2002 - Springer
... *deep*-*water* *Lophelia* *reefs* off the southeastern
*United**States*...
of *coral*, mollusks, crinoids, echinoids, and sponges (*Neumann*
...
that
*deep**water* *coral* *reefs* are accumulations of *coral* debris
Habitat and fauna of *deep*-*water Lophelia *pertusa *coral reefs
*off
the
southeastern *US*: Blake Plateau, Straits of Florida, and Gulf of
Mexico
<[10][26]https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/2006
/000000
78/00000002/art00009>
JK Reed
<[11][27]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=e
n&oi=sr
a>, DC
Weaver, SA Pomponi
<[12][28]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bL3lR1QAAAAJ&hl=e
n&oi=sr
a> -
Bulletin of Marine Science, 2006 - [29]ingentaconnect.com
... ,b), whereas lithoherms are high-relief, lithified carbonate
mounds,
rather than unconsolidated sediment mounds, and also may be
covered
with
thickets of live *coral* (*Neumann* et al
Regionalization of benthic hard-bottom communities across the
Pourtales
Terrace, Florida
<[13][30]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S09670637
2100053
4>
BK Walker
<[14][31]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=e
n&oi=sr
a>, C
*Messing*, J Ash, S Brooke... - *Deep Sea *Research ..., 2021 -
Elsevier
... of this habitat in the continental *US*). These corresponded
to ...
The
geographic extent of *deep*-*water**reefs* in this region is ...
The
*Lophelia* Mound Community reported in this study lies on
Lithoherms on the Florida-Hatteras slope
<[15][32]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S00253227
0000003
7>
CK Paull
<[16][33]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Htff9QQAAAAJ&hl=e
n&oi=sr
a>, AC
*Neumann*, BA Am Ende, W Ussler Iii
<[17][34]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uJ9nYoYAAAAJ&hl=e
n&oi=sr
a>... -
Marine Geology, 2000 - Elsevier
... Thickets of living ahermatypic *coral* coat the crest and
up-stream
flanks of these topographic features. Living deep-water *coral*
have
modern
14 C ages (700+-80 year bp) and trap older
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:19PM Dennis Hubbard via Coral-List <
[35]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Vassil:
>
> Thanks. If my old memory serves me right, Conrad Neumann
described
deep=ses
> reefs off the coast of Florida based on several submersible
dives.
I'm not
> sure I could find the reference as I've been out of the game
for so
long,
> However, I fondly remember a meeting on Bermuda where someone
referred to
> what sound like these reefs and Conrad, who was sitting next to
me,
leaned
> over an murmured , "did that in 1977'. If I'm right, this is
yet
another
> predictable of the unfortunate stresses for researchers
(especially
younger
> ones) to report only the most recent references in prestigious
journals
> like Nature and Science. More than once, in one of my snarkier
moods,
I'd
> commented that I was just waiting for some young grad student
stating
that
> s/he discovered evolution because that were unaware od Dsrwin's
work.
i
> understand that there are mechanisms to create ancillary
references
that
> will be listed outside the main reference list, but I am
pessimistic
about
> everyone tsking the time amd effort to go there.
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> Denny
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 10:59AM Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List
<
> [36]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > [18][37]https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > [38]Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >
[19][39]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin
College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong
stop"*
> Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
> _______________________________________________
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61. https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
62. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
63. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
64. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
65. mailto:Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
66. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
Hidden links:
68. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
69. file://localhost/tmp/tmpN3eLGm.html#x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
More information about the Coral-List
mailing list