[Coral-List] ESA Listing for 82 corals

vitz vitz kokovitz at msn.com
Fri Feb 19 21:38:52 EST 2010

"maybe we should develop the same no tolerance policy for the
> coral collectors and distributors that are responsible de-foresting
> Indo-Pacific coral rain-forests for fish tanks in the USA?"


i've been lurking on coral list for years, and have chimed in once or twice on some matters...


i'm not a scientist, nor a biologist, nor a reef ecologist....


what i am is a long time fw/sw tropical fish hobbyist (about 4 decades) w/backgrounds in retail, wholesale, import, and distribution of livestock and drygoods, along w/practical experience in fw commercial polyaquaculture...


i've also been a long time proponent of eco-friendly, sustainable collection for the MO (marine ornamental) industry-to the extent of being a (past) member of an NGO that works in the field of coral and clam aquaculture -and mr cervino's semi hyperbolic rhetoric compels me to respond as follows.....


this will be percieved by many as inflammatory-so be it


where on earth do you come up with the RIDICULOUS notion that the MO industry is what's responsible for the 'de-foresting
> Indo-Pacific coral rain-forests for fish tanks" ?


do you have any data or numbers to back this statement up ? or do you merely parrot the rhetoric of those who grossly misrepresent the amount of impact the MO industry has done-especially when compared to the far more serious and larger issues of pollution,trawling, tourism damage, global warming, etc. etc?


do you drive a car, mr. cervino ?


i do not-my method of transportation is a bicycle-i would postulate that you, if you drive a car, kill more corals daily than i do as a reef hobbyist, and an employee in the retail MO sector....


a large part of this discussion re: 'the 82' disgusts me- the issues at hand are not the MO industry's collection methods/amounts-that is 1/100th of a drop in the proverbial bucket, compared with the real issues at hand...


do scientists really think suing the U.S. gov't will save corals ? do they really think all of this discussion matters one bit as to working on the real issues/problems that are the true root causes of the demise of the reefs worldwide ?


if such is the case, i'm sad-but not ashamed, as you should all be


i wonder, for one, if these 'biodiversity yahoos', and especially their lawyers, would truly be interested in this issue, if money was taken out of the picture (that is, the money they stand to gain to further fund their shyster lawyers and organizations)


would they do this all 'pro-bono' ? 


there are people in this industry who have risked life and limb to make the MO industry less damaging to the reefs vis-a-vis the collection practices involved....and there is a continual argument/investigation by many who strive to improve many aspects of our industry, from sustainable collection, to improvement of transport methods to minimize losses in shipping, captive breeding/propagation  efforts (such as those done by ORA)-we are more aware of, and concerned about, these matters, mr cervino, than you and your rhetoric , rest assured.


every day, when i leave for work on my bike, and think of how many cars are on the roads every second of everyday, and the staggering amount of pollution spewed forth by automobiles, and countless other industries, i weep for this planet-i'm even saddened by the damage i cause as part of the 'modern' society we are, in spite of keeping a relatively minimal carbon footprint (and yes, i do 'get' that keeping a tank, in and of itself, kills corals merely by burning the fossil fuels to provide the electricity those tanks require-there is no moral/eco friendly argument in favor of aquariums-but then again, i'm not making ridiculous assertions about minor players making major damage)...


i keep reading these ridiculous discussions bantering back and forth within the scientific community on this list server, while not one scientist seems to get it-you should all be taking up arms and storming gov'ts  for their complicity in raping, pillaging, and murdering the very habitats and ecosystems you make your livings on claiming to defend and be concerned about, while accepting pay from thos every bodies that are killing the planet....


wouldn't your time be better spent attacking exxon mobil, and how they got away w/bloody murder from the whole 'exxon valdez' incident ? things like this go on all the time, and you're tantruming about the MO industry 'de-foresting  the reefs' ? are you sane, man ?!!


i guess that's kinda hard to do when those same gov'ts and ind. groups sign off on your paychecks, huh ?


shame on all of you, every single one, from the uscrtf, to the cbd-i hope you're all having fun in your sandbox discussions, and selfish greedy plans while the planet not so slowly dies


you're all an embarrasment to what science should stand for, you let your petty egos get in the way of greater truths, while favoring the chasing of highly visible scapegoat targets to further your own selfish personal agendas, instead of truly dealing with the evils you claim to be fighting against


it's no wonder the republican pr machine has such an easy time nay-saying global warming to john q. public


> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500
> From: jcervino at whoi.edu
> To: sale at uwindsor.ca
> CC: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] ESA Listing for 82 corals
> Dear Peter,
> This was a wonderful and accurate posting, however, it is impossible to achieve
> some of these important goals until the global warming deniers and "coral
> resilience" advocates realize that these ecosystems are going to die within
> their life time; unless drastic action is taken to stabilize CO2 emissions,
> create a new massive initiative for the replanting of carbon sequestering
> trees, protect soil peat bogs & wetlands. These are very important storage
> depots of carbon dioxide. By creating new bogs, or enhancing/protecting the
> already existing ones, carbon sequestration can be achieved.
> The coral collection advocates, that are responsible for filling the coastal
> port containers with valuable coral species, need to be stopped if we are to
> protect coral rainforests that are remaining. Here in the little ole State of
> NYC, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (Region 2) 
> have created a no tolerance position on developers and violators that fill,
> collect, or damage wetlands. Now, even if good folks file for a permit that
> may encroach on 12' INCHES of NY state protected coastal wetlands, one must
> give-back, or create 24-48' inches of wetland elsewhere on some rare occasions
> (references will be provided) Given the status of tropical corals globally,
> and since we cannot get passed a "not take policy" of valuable corals, maybe
> we should create a 100-1 ratio give back, for the coral collectors that sell
> corals to the USA for living room tables? Meaning, for every 1 (one) Euphillia
> or Porites spp. collected, one must restore and replant 100 colonies of the
> same size, exact same species elsewhere!!
> If NYC & LI Department of Environmental Conservation get the message that
> coastal invertebrates, shell-fish, soil peat, Spartina and Zostera, are a
> valuable species, as a means to prevent beach erosion, and carbon
> sequestration, maybe we should develop the same no tolerance policy for the
> coral collectors and distributors that are responsible de-foresting
> Indo-Pacific coral rain-forests for fish tanks in the USA?
> James
> *************************************
> Dr. James M. Cervino
> Visiting Scientist
> Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute and Advocate for target goal:n=280-300ppm CO2
> Contact Information:
> NYC Address: 9-22 119st
> College Point New York, 11356
> Cell: 917-620*5287
> ************************************
> Quoting Peter Sale <sale at uwindsor.ca>:
> * Fellow coral listers,
> *
> * I prefer to silently read the posts by others, but every now and then, I
> * am forced to comment. Recent posts on the topic of listing of more corals
> * under the US Endangered Species Act by Gene Shinn, John Ogden and others
> * show the diversity of opinion out there, even among the scientifically
> * informed. Rather than comment on whether listing is a useful action to
> * take, let me take a different tack. (I remain curious concerning the
> * penchant within the US for listing organisms that live largely or entirely
> * outside US jurisdiction ? such as the red kangaroo ? but now is not the
> * time and place for that discussion.) There is such a thing as fiddling
> * while Rome burns. We are generally quite good at that, and I fear we are
> * going to go on fiddling until the opportunity to actually take action will
> * have passed us by. Corals, and many other species, are at risk of
> * extinction because too many of us insist on demanding too much from an
> * environment that cannot provide for these wants. I happen to think we
> * need these other species more than we realize, and that it is in our own
> * self-interest to change our attitudes and behavior now. We do not need
> * the US to list corals as endangered to know that management of most reef
> * areas around the world is woefully inadequate, nor to know what steps need
> * to be taken to improve that management ? reduce overfishing, cut
> * pollution, eliminate inappropriate coastal development, and, yes, cut CO2
> * emissions and reduce atmospheric CO2 concentrations in order to
> * stabilize/restore ocean surface waters pH. In short, we need to start
> * managing our impacts on reefs, instead of continuing to pretend to manage
> * them. That means making actual, on-the-ground changes, not discussing
> * changes, legislating changes, or bemoaning the lack of changes. We could
> * also start thinking seriously about the carrying capacity of this planet
> * for Homo sapiens, rather than complacently noting that our population is
> * trending towards 9.2 billion by mid century. What can one scientist do?
> * We each can start by doing our best to articulate the problem as clearly
> * as possible in every forum open to us ? we have a very big problem and
> * most people are quite unaware of how big it is. When did you last
> * buttonhole a politician, get an article into a newspaper, talk to a school
> * group, post on a web-site, get yourself onto TV to talk about environment,
> * or, especially, work to improve environmental management where you live?
> * When did you last talk quietly to your family or neighbors about this
> * issue? When did you set an example? Spaceship Earth is not being managed
> * sustainably, and its coral canaries are screaming as loudly as they can..
> *
> * Peter Sale
> *
> * Peter F. Sale
> * Assistant Director
> * United Nations University
> * Institute for Water, Environment and Health
> * and
> * University Professor Emeritus
> * University of Windsor
> * _______________________________________________
> * Coral-List mailing list
> * Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> * http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> *
> *
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