[Coral-List] Impact of listing 66 coral species on coral research

Jennifer Moore - NOAA Federal jennifer.moore at noaa.gov
Fri Dec 14 15:10:47 EST 2012

"Finally - my original question of a few weeks back. Could someone who is
more familiar with the subtleties of the listing process briefly lay out
what they see as the pros and cons of listing in general, and specifically
"threatened" versus "endangered". I didn't ask this to set off another
hostile thread. I really don't know the answer."

Dennis and others - I will attempt to answer this last question.

The following is quoted from the ESA and is a section often overlooked when
getting mired in the other sections that tell us "what" to do.  This is
"why" we do it.


SEC. 2.
(a) FINDINGS.—The Congress finds and declares that—
(1) various species of fish, wildlife, and plants in the United States have
been rendered extinct as a consequence of economic growth and development
untempered by adequate concern and conservation;

(2) other species of fish, wildlife, and plants have been so depleted in
numbers that they are in danger of or threatened with extinction;

(3) these species of fish, wildlife, and plants are of esthetic,
ecological, educational, historical, recreational, and scientific value to
the Nation and its people;

(4) the United States has pledged itself as a sovereign state in the
international community to conserve to the extent practicable the various
species of fish or wildlife and plants facing extinction, pursuant to—

(A) migratory bird treaties with Canada and Mexico; (B) the Migratory and
Endangered Bird Treaty with Japan; (C) the Convention on Nature Protection
and Wildlife Preservation in the Western Hemisphere; (D) the International
Convention for the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries; (E) the International
Convention for the High Seas Fisheries of the North Pacific Ocean; (F) the
Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and
Flora; and (G) other international agreements; and

(5) encouraging the States and other interested parties, through Federal
financial assistance and a system of incentives, to develop and maintain
conservation programs which meet national and international standards is a
key to meeting the Nation’s international commitments and to better
safeguarding, for the benefit of all citizens, the Nation’s heritage in
fish, wildlife, and plants.

(b) PURPOSES.—The purposes of this Act are to provide a means whereby the
ecosystems upon which endangered species and threatened species depend may
be conserved, to provide a program for the conservation of such endangered
species and threatened species, and to take such steps as may be
appropriate to achieve the purposes of the treaties and conventions set
forth in subsection (a) of this section.

(c) POLICY.—(1) It is further declared to be the policy of Congress that
all Federal departments and agencies shall seek to conserve endangered
species and threatened species and shall utilize their authorities in
furtherance of the purposes of this Act. (2) It is further declared to be
the policy of Congress that Federal agencies shall cooperate with State and
local agencies to resolve water resource issues in concert with
conservation of endangered species.

Hence the pros of listing are the conservation of those species in danger
of or threatened with extinction.  The cons are in the eye of the beholder.

The difference between a threatened species and an endangered species is
the timeframe of the extinction risk.  Endangered means the species is
currently at risk of extinction.  Threatened species are likely to be in
danger of extinction within the foreseeable future.  In terms of
application, a species listed as endangered automatically receives the full
protection of the act, including all prohibitions on the following
activities:  import and export; "take" - meaning harrass, harm, pursue,
hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or attempt to engage
in any such conduct; possess, sell, deliver, carry transport, or ship if
taken illegally; interstate and foreign commerce.  A threatened species
does not have those prohibitions automatically extended, but we must
undertake separate rule making to determine if the extension of those
prohibitions are necessary and advisable for the conservation of the
threatened species.

We must develop and implement recovery plans for all listed species
regardless of listing status.  All federal agencies authorizing, funding,
or carrying out activities that may affect the species must ensure their
activity does not jeopardize the continued existence of the species and
through consultation with NMFS identify reasonable and prudent measures to
minimize the impact of the action should it not jeopardize the continued
existence of the species.  We must cooperate with States accomplish

I hope this answers the questions.


*Jennifer Moore
ESA Coral Coordinator | Protected Resources Division
NOAA Fisheries Service
263 13th Ave South
Saint Petersburg, FL 33701
727-551-5797 phone | 727-824-5309 faxjennifer.moore at noaa.gov


To those who sacrificed careers of adventure in the wide-open spaces
to wrestle for conservation in the policy arena.*

On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu
> wrote:

> TIME OUT!!! Everyone go find your sleeping mats. It's "quiet time".
> I started this post over a week ago and put it away remembering an earlier
> admonishment of long missives. Having now read enough verbiage to fill a
> bad first draft of a master's thesis, I've pulled it back out.
> Clearly, this is an important discussion and one we will not resolve here..
> My short answer to the very eloquent parable of December 7th is that
> clearly we saw Hitler as a bigger threat to our society than we saw our
> society as a threat to our own life-support system... and that is sad
> indeed.The good news may be that we're doomed.
> In *Home Economics*, Wendell Berry wrote, " We have never known what we
> were doing, because we have never known what we were UNdoing. We cannot
> know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were
> doing nothing." This is, in effect, Geology's seat at the grown-ups table
> when it comes to discussions of climate change, environmental "decline",
> etc. The geologic record gives us a temporal and spatial perspective that I
> find missing in much of the literature.... and the design of many
> ecological experiments.
> Having said that, we (geologists) have our blind spots as well. Too often
> we fail to recognize that, while the record we see is both temporally and
> spatially grand, the laws that dictated how it unfolded operated largely on
> a day-to-day basis that we simply can't tease from the record. So, we have
> to do the best we can by trying to think beyond what we can measure in a
> core or an outcrop. I've fallen into that trap too many times to not look
> for it.
> We geologists may not be the brightest bulbs in the pack, but I really
> doubt that Gene's been going back to the Keys year after year looking for
> Elvis to return from the dead. I believe the term "local extinction" has
> not been struck from the scientific lexicon. Gene's probably spent more
> time "looking" at reefs than most of us combined, so I've learned to think
> very carefully when he brings up a point that really pisses me off. He's
> usually either right or has at least reminded me that there is something I
> need to think more carefully about.  If one looks objectively at the
> arguments that go on in the popular literature (and I consider Science and
> Nature to be among these) the curmudgeons are most often people who have
> lived and worked at Marine Labs. I suggest you go back and look at some of
> the back-and-forth discussion as the reefs off Disco Bay were coming apart
> to see passionate but well-framed and civil disagreements.
> Those of us who have been fortunate to spend any significant time living
> near the reefs on which we work are mindful of the tremendous spatial and
> temporal variability that occurs on individual reefs. I spent over a decade
> bringing students and colleagues back to the same place only to see how
> much "shake-and-bake" there was  (I think that's the proper term in the
> stasis literature). Also, I have seen places that I visited on an almost
> daily basis (and published on) varyingly described in the literature as
> "rich" or "poor", "stable" or "declining"..... and often based on the same
> data (sometimes mine) viewed through the lens of individual bias - this is
> the stuff of dogma. Many of our arguments depend on which perception we
> choose to accept. Yes, reefs are "changing", and I would argue they
> are  "unhealthy".
> However, I am always mindful that the latter is largely a personal
> position, which includes biases from having spent so much time so close to
> the patient.
> Too often we go to places at great expense and temporal investment (and,
> let's not forget the blazing trails of carbon we've left as we visit our
> favorite sites far afield). As a result, we spend so much time "working"
> that we don't spend enough time "looking". I remember a very gifted
> colleague years back explaining that their field site, which was the
> "model" for the northern third of the GBR, was chosen based on "where the
> captain would anchor". These are the realities of research, but we still
> don't want to forget that our careful measurements can still benefit from
> taking the time to just burn a little air looking around.... or a little
> valuable journal space just musing. Yeah, it's not random and can't be
> entered into a non- metric scaling analysis, but.......
> I often think back to Bill Gladfelter's warnings about WBD that went
> largely unnoticed.... and it was damned frightening as you watched it
> unfold. But, for some reason, it didn't get any traction until it hit the
> Keys..... go figure. Then it was a big deal. Any bias there?
> A few years back, Hal Wanless kindly shared some of his photos of
> magnificent *A. palmata *communities in the Turks and Caicos (acres of
> them.... it was Buck Island reincarnate). Then they got hammered a few
> years back by multiple hurricanes and cover was decimated. I crossed paths
> with Hal again this past summer and he showed me photos of the recovery.....
> and it is incredible. What's up?? I have seen photos of acre-after-acre of
> *A.
> palmata* along the south coast of Cuba. Same question.
> I mention this not to argue against listing of the species (that's above my
> pay grade), but to point out that this phenomenon is incredibly variable
> and we have opportunities to perhaps understand what factors combine to
> make *A. palmata* so "happy" at these and similar sites. Maybe it's a
> larval dispersal peculiarity. Maybe it's because Cuban fishermen using too
> small a mesh size in their traps just disappear. I doubt it's a matter of
> warming passing these places by. If I were inclined to bring out the
> "over-the-hill" gang and take some more shelf-edge cores, I'd probably go
> to one of these sites to see if *A. palmata* along the deeper shelf edge
> survived through the two millennial-scale gaps in the species 6,000 and
> 3,000 years ago throughout the Caribbean (nobody's given me any samples
> from those intervals in nearly a decade since I first mentioned this). I
> can only imaging how easy it would be to get a permit to core through one
> of the few remaining A. palmata communities in the region.
> So, while I do not share Gene's healthy skepticism about our ties to this
> problem and the potential value of listing species, I do share his sense
> that we too often use environmental strategies to convince ourselves that
> we understand an issue or are "doing something to deal with it". With the
> best of intentions, we toss terms like "decline" and "health" around with
> abandon. Unfortunately the number of perceptions of what these mean is
> probably close to the number of people participating in the discussion. For
> years, I have read both civil and uncivil discussions of the relative
> importance of "top down" vs "bottom up" vs "side in" impacts (we're running
> out of directions folks). .... and the animus has risen to the point where
> the people who probably know the most about these things no longer talk to
> one another.
> The following wise words of the recently passed savant, George Carlin seem
> appropriate here: "We’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little
> over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion.
> And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we’re a threat?..... Save the
> planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven’t
> learned how to care for one another, we’re gonna save the %#*&ing planet?
> Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The
> PEOPLE are f%#*&ed.
> So, I end my post with three questions in the hope that they will spawn
> careful introspection and a measured response. First, "What is "healthy"
> and what would we return reefs to if we were the Secretary of Coral Reefs?"
> Does anyone really believe that if we don't remove the stresses that are
> responsible, keeping species behind a fence will do any good? Yes, I
> understand that the listing process has recovery plans and a number of
> other tools to implement solutions. These are well intentioned, but until
> we understand the habitat-level relationships, they are just window
> dressing.
> Second, "what could we have done, or might we do, other than the obvious
> things we've "fiddled with" over the years as CO2 levels have steadily
> risen?". Politics matter - and until we get better at engaging the public,
> we shouldn't expect much success. We get our butts kicked in debates over
> climate change and evolution for a reason.
> Finally - my original question of a few weeks back. Could someone who is
> more familiar with the subtleties of the listing process briefly lay out
> what they see as the pros and cons of listing in general, and specifically
> "threatened" versus "endangered". I didn't ask this to set off another
> hostile thread. I really don't know the answer.
> So, whether you can embrace with any of the points I've made here, I hope
> you can agree that a bunch of obviously well educated and gifted scientists
> lifting their legs and marking trees in the back yard probably won't get us
> where we want to be at the end of this discussion.
> Sorry, but diplomacy isn't my strong suit.
> Dennis
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Steve Mussman <sealab at earthlink.net
> >wrote:
> >
> >    Dear Gene,
> >
> >    I  suppose  you  will  never understand/learn why coral scientists and
> >    environmentalists are so worried about the impacts of anthropogenic
> > climate
> >    change..  Although the geological record is essential for
> understanding
> > how
> >    species respond to natural climate change, there are a number of
> > reasons why
> >    future effects on biodiversity will likely be different and
> particularly
> >    severe. Human-induced warming is already rapid and is expected to
> > accelerate
> >    further. Changes, not in models, but in the real world of glaciers,
> heat
> >    records, species distribution and behavior, are already evident.  It
> is
> >    quite possible that in a geological instant, planetary conditions will
> > be
> >    transformed to a state unlike anything that the worldâs modern species
> > have
> >    ever encountered. Most ecosystems have already degraded and lost
> > resilience
> >    from past human activities. In this context, synergies from
> temperature
> >    increases, ocean acidification, chemical pollution and other factors
> > could
> >    lead to cascading extinctions for the changes are occurring too
> rapidly
> > for
> >    adaptations like those found in the geological record to reoccur.
> >
> >           And this time around, we believe we could have done something
> > about
> >    it.
> >
> >    Regards,
> >
> >    Steve
> >    -----Original Message-----
> >    >From: Eugene Shinn
> >    >Sent: Dec 10, 2012 3:31 PM
> >    >To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >    >Subject: [Coral-List] Impact of listing 66 coral species on coral
> > research
> >    >
> >    >Dear Listers, I suppose coral biologists and environmentalists will
> >    >never understand/learn what the geology of coral reefs is telling us.
> >    >As pointed out many, many times, about 98 percent of the Florida Keys
> >    >reefs are no less than a meter thick yet they have been underwater at
> >    >least 6,000 years. Acropora has come and gone several times during
> >    >that period long before all the current hysteria about
> >    >Co2/warming/alkalinity shift began. Seems likely that if history were
> >    >not repeating itself our reefs would be many meters thicker and
> >    >contain a continuous record of all the species we worry about. Gene
> >    >--
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
> >    >------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------
> >    >E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
> >    >University of South Florida
> >    >College of Marine Science Room 221A
> >    >140 Seventh Avenue South
> >    >St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> >    >
> >    >Tel 727 553-1158----------------------------------
> >    >-----------------------------------
> >    >_______________________________________________
> >    >Coral-List mailing list
> >    >Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >    >http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> --
> Dennis Hubbard
> Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 775-8346
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list


*Jennifer Moore
ESA Coral Coordinator | Protected Resources Division
NOAA Fisheries Service
263 13th Ave South
Saint Petersburg, FL 33701
727-551-5797 phone | 727-824-5309 faxjennifer.moore at noaa.gov


To those who sacrificed careers of adventure in the wide-open spaces
to wrestle for conservation in the policy arena.*

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