[Coral-List] Listing Criteria Observation

Wed Dec 19 22:19:47 EST 2012

Dr. Szmant,

Understood. I overreacted. :)

I am just passionate as many here are about corals and I hope we come to
the best conclusions. I was being proactive for a particular cause but it
seems that maybe science is more about weighing all of the facts and not
taking a side. The problem is that not taking a side causes issues for my
pocket!

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Szmant, Alina <szmanta at uncw.edu> wrote:

> Dear Jon:
>
> My comment was not meant in any way as a comment about the value of coral
> mariculture, which I think is great and helps relieve pressure on wild
> populations.  It was strictly about the totally incorrect caption below the
> photograph of a colony of Acropora cervicornis with some white strips of
> missing tissue down a couple of branches, in which the caption invoked acid
> acidification and global warming as the causes of the white patches. This
> had nothing to do with mariculture but was an attempt by someone:
> journalist, editor, ??? to hype the issue.
>
> Alina Szmant
>
> *************************************************************************
> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
> Professor of Marine Biology
> Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
> 5600 Marvin Moss Ln
> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
> http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
> *******************************************************
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov [mailto:
> coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Jon Skrapits
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:21 PM
> To: Steve Mussman
> Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Listing Criteria Observation
>
> Steve and Dr. Szmant,
>
> Is government intervention founded to save the reefs? Are listed species
> in FL on the rebound?
>
> I understand that certain animals would benefit by restrictions but I
> don't believe this is the case with coral. If over fishing, eutrophication,
> global warming, marine ornamental harvest, ocean acidification, and other
> debated causes are the problem then how will keeping the corals in the
> ocean save them? Just as if our environment was declining due to slowly
> elevating carbon monoxide levels or something else(imagine), staying here
> would only seal our slow fate. Some would die before others but staying
> here wouldn't be an option unless we reversed the trend which could take
> decades and by that point we could be extinct.
>
> If the ESA passes the proposed restrictions how would the FWC or any other
> governing authority determine if the species in front of them is legal or
> not? How will they determine if it was aquacultured or not? Aquaculture is
> a friend to preserving the reefs. Need me to send you a clipping from one
> of my 600 species for studying? Or should I hire a Dr. to write articles to
> gain legitimacy on what is observed daily with the corals in my facility?
> Does a dive show the same data upon observing a wild reef that I have
> learned from my grown reef? It is much more intimate and species specific
> on land since I don't have to hold my breath. Granted, the conditions are
> not the same as in the wild but that does not mean data is totally
> worthless. I have specimens that I have farmed for years that are
> bulletproof and other that are very fragile. I see valid points in all
> arguments for the mentioned issues destroying the reefs yet I can see where
> they can be incorrect from the work I do. Not all scholarly articles are
> 100% accurate over time. If they were the reefs would be rebounding from
> the years of agreed upon articles that are 100% accurate stating how to
> save the reefs. There would also be zero disagreement about the causes of
> why corals are dying.
>
> Furthermore, what gives the government or anyone the right to restrict
> something when we aren't 100% sure of the causes or how we are going to fix
> the causes? Maybe the cause and solution haven't been found yet? I have
> seen many corals show signs of die off while next to other corals that are
> 100% healthy. Then they rebound and do fine while nothing apparent has
> changed. I have also kept pieces of Acropora for years with no problem and
> thought they were bulletproof only to look at them in the morning and they
> have lost all tissue for no apparent reason. Predation is not an option
> since I quarantine and treat for any predators. I can saw corals in half
> and they beg for more yet a slight swing in temp can do them in.
>
> Dr. Szmant,
>
> > "Can we please get back to real science and have some quality control
> > over what information is broadly disseminated?"
>
> Apologies for not using only scholarly articles. I didn't realize we were
> being graded in this classroom. Also, the reefs need the average person
> reading articles they can understand to become aware of the problems
> encouraging them to get involved. Peer reviewed will not accomplish this.
> The internet makes the average person "smarter" since there is access to
> anything you want to learn.
>
> The point of sharing the link was to show that there are findings in a
> peer reviewed article cited by the NY Times(albeit poor science in the Times
> article) that supports aquaculture as a sustainable means for the aquarium
> industry. Why not use aquaculture for studying coral in a laboratory as
> well and why not teach indigenous islanders to mariculture? Couldn't we
> harvest and re-populate the reefs infinitely once we find the cure for the
> die off?
>
> Nevertheless, your point was well taken and it won't happen again. We are
> both trying to help.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Steve Mussman <sealab at earthlink.net
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > Jon,
> >
> > It is understandable that you have trepidation regarding regulations
> > affecting your business interests, but to suggest that government
> > intervention will likely worsen the problem as it relates to the
> > sustainability of our coral reefs I believe is unfounded. There are
> > many examples of regulations that have been enacted involving marine
> > ecosystems and fisheries that in fact have proven beneficial to all
> > including commercial interests. It is also true that initially many of
> > these restrictions were met with opposition only to be later
> > recognized as effective and restorative. At the risk of Gene telling
> > me that I'm sounding like Karl Marx, total opposition to all
> > regulation is not the approach taken by most responsible businesses
> > and many industries have come to recognize that a growing and
> > sustainable economy requires asophisticated and strategic partnership
> between government and the private sector.
> >
> > Regards,
> >   Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon Skrapits **
> > Sent: Dec 18, 2012 6:04 PM
> > To: Douglas Fenner **
> > Cc: coral list **, Steve Mussman **
> > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Listing Criteria Observation
> >
> > Hey Doug,
> >
> > You keep referring to the tragedy of the commons dilemma. One
> > particular case of this was our early settlers. They almost didn't
> > make it due to public ownership of land and resources.
> >
> > How did they fix it? Elinor Ostrom suggested that non local or gov.
> > Intervention would worsen this problem and that local people are
> > better suited to solve this. Mariculture is a great means towards
> > sustainability for the aquarium trade and for the indigenous people.
> > What I fear is that regulations such as these cause problems down the
> > road when more species of coral die since the ocean is in decline as a
> > desirable coral habitat. That is, more regulations because the first
> > round didn't work. This is always how gov. Operates. It never gets rid
> > of regulations. Plus, how will the gov ensure that no banned species
> > are in aquariums after the ban? What about pre-ban acquisitions? Will
> > it be illegal to possessing them? If so, I am throwing my stuff in the
> > Atlantic. You see.... There are many externalities that would arise.
> Gov. Good intentions usually produce bad results.
> >
> > Anyone know the answer to this?
> > Is Apal and Acer on the rebound since being listed? If the FL Keys
> > were suitable for them to thrive they wouldn't need human help via
> > propagation once banned from harvest. They would thrive beyond belief.
> > Much like a nuisance coral in an aquarium that is left un-fragmented.
> > Unless I inject one of the man made problems we can't seem to agree
> > upon as the main problem for reefs declining.
> >
> > I believe there is no regulation or cultural change that is on the
> > live to slow the decline of our reefs. Even if there was, it would
> > still take a decade or more to see any positive benefit. If I am
> > right, choose your regulations or education of people wisely.
> > On Dec 18, 2012 5:18 PM, "Douglas Fenner"
> > <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The restrictions imposed by ESA (Endangered Species Act) on imported
> >> corals will only affect those listed out of the 66 species proposed,
> >> out of over 790 reef coral species in the world.  The other 724+
> >> species will be unaffected.  How does that make it so that studies of
> >> coral aquaculture can't be done??  This proposed ESA listing also
> >> doesn't affect the many other reef species that are imported which
> >> can be aquacultured, such as fish, invertebrates, etc.
> >>
> >> I continue to disagree with the view that exploitation of wild
> >> species will cause the exploiters to value the natural ecosystem.
> >> The incentive is in fact to exploit, not protect.  Fisheries are a
> >> great example of this, the economic incentive is to fish until it is no
> longer profitable to fish.
> >>  In other words, fish until there are so few fish left that they are
> >> economically extinct (though not biologically extinct).  Collecting
> >> corals is a fishery, like collecting (=catching) tuna or any other
> >> fish.  The Status Report on the 82 species petitioned points out that
> >> collecting for the aquarium trade is one of the more minor threats to
> >> these species, as it surely is.  But all mortality contributes to the
> decline of a species.
> >>
> >> I suggest that non-consumptive uses have a greater incentive for
> >> conserving natural ecosystems than exploitation, particularly when
> >> the use depends on high quality ecosystem.  Diving can fit that bill,
> >> when divers can tell the difference between living and dead reef, and
> >> because they love really big fish, and lots of fish.  Aquaculture
> >> does have the potential to avoid the exploitation of wild stocks,
> >> which would be good.  I am told that at least in the past, some or
> >> many aquaculture projects actually were grow-outs, where wild corals
> >> continued to be collected, broken into fragments which were then
> >> grown and exported.  The advantage of aquarium-grown corals in the
> >> country where the coral is sold is that no additional wild collecting
> is necessary.
> >>
> >> Does anybody have a reference to the "new study" referred to in this
> >> article?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,  Doug
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Jon Skrapits <
> >> jon at treasurecoastcorals.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Agreed Steve,
> >>>
> >>> I was being sarcastic about the parrot and trying to show that they
> >>> are a benefit but at a quick glance it may seem as though they are
> destructive.
> >>>
> >>> Check this out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/finding-a-place-for-coral-
> >>> farms-in-a-changing-ocean/
> >>>
> >>> How can we develop scientific studies on the benefits of aquaculture
> >>> if we never pursue that avenue due to restrictions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Steve Mussman
> >>> <sealab at earthlink.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Jon,
> >>> >
> >>> > In response to your side note:
> >>> >
> >>> > **
> >>> > "If limiting actions that deplete the ocean such as harvesting
> >>> > coral to grow it, then why aren't we destroying parrot fish
> >>> that
> >>> > eat the coral? I blame them for the destruction of the reef".
> >>> >
> >>> > A paper by the Universities of Exeter and California Davis,
> >>> > published November 1, 2007 in Nature explains that Parrotfish are
> >>> > now the sole grazers of seaweed on many Caribbean reefs, but
> >>> > fishing has limited
> >>> their
> >>> > numbers. With insufficient Parrotfish grazing, corals are unable
> >>> > to recover after major disturbances like hurricanes and become
> >>> > much less healthy as a result. The paper argues that in order to
> >>> > secure a future for coral reefs, particularly in light of the
> >>> > predicted impact of
> >>> climate
> >>> > change, Parrotfish need to be protected. The good news is that we
> >>> > can take practical steps to protect Parrotfish and help reef
> regeneration.
> >>> We
> >>> > recommend a change in policy to establish controls over the use of
> >>> > fish traps, which Parrotfish are particularly vulnerable to. We
> >>> > also call on anyone who visits the Caribbean and sees Parrotfish
> >>> > on a restaurant
> >>> menu to
> >>> > voice their concern to the management.
> >>> >
> >>> > This research was published in Nature: vol 450, issue 7166.
> >>> >
> >>> > Regards,
> >>> >   Steve
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > >From: Jon Skrapits **
> >>> > >Sent: Dec 18, 2012 10:24 AM
> >>> > >To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> > >Subject: [Coral-List] Listing Criteria Observation
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I looked over the criteria the best I could. I apologize if I
> >>> > misunderstood
> >>> > >but it seems as though the driving factor for determining the
> >>> > >listing
> >>> of a
> >>> > >coral is by counting the number of animals distributed in an
> >>> ecosystem.
> >>> > >Then many different hypotheses are thrown out to state a personal
> >>> case or
> >>> > >blame a general global phenomenon or "problem." I never heard
> >>> > >more
> >>> > specific
> >>> > >questions such as these.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >What does an acropora(or other corals) look like when it is
> >>> > >subjected
> >>> to
> >>> > >low pH?
> >>> > >How about inadequate flow?(How can a fragmentation survive if you
> >>> place it
> >>> > >improperly?)
> >>> > >How about elevated levels of nitrates?(does it even affect them?)
> >>> > >Phosphates?
> >>> > >Insufficient calcium levels?
> >>> > >What about the overall chemistry of seawater when Magnesium is low?
> >>> > >Temp fluctuations?
> >>> > >Effects of a changing ecosystem causing a lack of food for corals?
> >>> > >Do corals really need fish or is it the other way around?( I have
> >>> > >many systems w/out fish and pleny of corals)
> >>> > >
> >>> > >These and many other questions must be answered every hour in
> >>> aquaculture
> >>> > >and guessing wrong causes mass deaths in some cases. Much can be
> >>> learned
> >>> > >from this.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >On a side note.... If limiting actions that deplete the ocean
> >>> > >such as harvesting coral to grow it, then why aren't we
> >>> > >destroying parrot fish
> >>> > that
> >>> > >eat the coral? I blame them for the destruction of the reefs.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >As I have said many times, gov. regulation will only kill the reefs.
> >>> > Making
> >>> > >it a profitable venture will save them. Educate not regulate. If
> >>> > >we
> >>> can't
> >>> > >agree on what is killing the reefs and change our habits, the
> >>> > >ocean
> >>> will
> >>> > >not improve and the corals will sit on the reef awaiting their
> >>> demise. Are
> >>> > >the oceans improving? What are we doing to improve that? Just ban
> >>> > >havesting? That is the answer? I will collect as many species as
> >>> possible
> >>> > >to have a genetic pool of hearty corals that have been through
> >>> > fluctuations
> >>> > >and hopefully one day I can help or my kids can help to replant
> >>> > >the
> >>> ocean.
> >>> > >I will watch the rest of mankind squabble over what they think is
> >>> > >the problem as it worsens. Maybe we will knock off parrot fish as
> >>> > >a last
> >>> > resort
> >>> > >if they are still alive.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >--
> >>> > >Thanks,
> >>> > >_______________________________________________
> >>> > >Coral-List mailing list
> >>> > >Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> > >http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>> > **
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Coral-List mailing list
> >>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dept. Marine & Wildlife Resources, American Samoan Government PO Box
> >> 7390 Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ********
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
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-- 
Thanks,