[Coral-List] Mussman

[Douglas Fenner]

Bill,

* not everyone who disagrees with us is doing pseudo science
* the sun is not the cause of the current warming trend, since the sun
output goes up and down on an 11 year cycle, not a steady baseline followed
by rapid increase over several decades, the hockey stick shaped graph that
climate has done and which the sun does not do.
* I favor moving the climate change argument to coralreef freeforall

No, we don't call anyone who disagrees with us a pseudo-scientist.  We call
anybody who persists indefinitely pushing the same argument, in spite of it
having been disproved multiple times by actual evidence, a person doing
pseudoscience.  (it is possible for a person to do both, doing one on one
subject and the other on a different subject, in fact some people do that,
so I wouldn't say a person is a pseudo-scientist.)  When critics pointed
out a mistake in calculations on the rates of glacial melting in the IPCC
report, the IPCC scientists checked their figures, found their error,
admitted it publicly, and quickly corrected it.  That's science.  Another
is the climate scientist that was skeptical about the data on warming, so
he collected data from a wide variety of sources himself, and ended up
finding that the increase is real.  He then changed his mind and stopped
claiming that the climate wasn't warming.  That's science.  But we get the
same old sun argument year after year even though it has been disproved
many times.  Deniers focus great effort and ingenuity if trying to be
critical of human-caused warming, but are amazingly uncritical of their own
arguments, the bias is obvious.

The sun is not the cause of the present warming.  Over relatively short
time periods like the time period of this warming (the last few decades),
the sun undergoes an 11-year sunspot cycle.  It is an up and down cycle,
not an upward trend in the shape of a hockey stick.  The climate has been
changing in a pattern like a hockey stick: previously steady for a long
period of time, and now rapid increase.  Climate does not go up and down in
an 11 year cycle driven by the sun.  That said, the IPCC does not say that
the present warming trend is 100% human driven.  Take a look at their
report, they parse out all the different contributors and give the best
available evidence of the amount of contribution of each.  Currently
natural effects contribute a relatively small, but non-zero, amount to the
warming.  Up to a few decades ago, the natural effects were the main driver
of the warming that was occurring, and human effects were smaller.  That's
the best available science based on actual evidence, and is backed up the
US National Academy of Scientists (which includes many of the best
scientists from countries all over the world, including many Nobel
winners), and all other major bodies of scientists, including geological
societies, and 97% of the 1000 climate scientists that publish the most
climate papers in peer reviewed journals.  Check the websites of any of
those scientific societies for their statements on climate change.  It is
disputed by many web sites that have no scientific peer review, and are
funded by the fossil fuel industry to spread disinformation, as was done by
the tobacco industry to protect their profits derived from a product that
kills 400,000 people a year in the US alone.  Criminal I say, good
business, they say.  Some of the same people are involved in those two
campaigns.
       This sun cause has been debunked many many times, but the deniers
never admit that argument is wrong, they change to other false arguments
and when people have forgotten go back to the sun.  There are websites that
list a long list of false arguments that are the stock arguments of
deniers.  Their motivation drives what they say, not the facts.

I agree with August that the appropriate place for climate change arguments
is coralreef freeforall, and I invite people involved in this argument to
switch to there.

Cheers, Doug


On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:55 AM, Bill Raymond <billraymond10 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> You call anyone who disagrees with you a pseudo-scientist? Anthropogenic
> Global Warming is pseudo-science. It has not been proven, yet you ridicule
> anyone who dares to challenge it. When someone disagrees with AGW, you
> throw in their face all the arguments for climate change. Climate change is
> not the issue; greenhouse gases being the cause is. You know the climate
> has changed many times before. Yet you continue to ignore the obvious
> cause: the sun. Pseudo-science is articles such as comparing the sun-spot
> cycle to past ones and concluding greenhouse gases must be the cause, with
> no supporting evidence other than computer models, which will show whatever
> you want them to. The IPCC, in considering the evidence, concludes the
> solar imput since 1750 has not changed significantly to explain the present
> climate change, but greenhouse gases have risen, ergo that must be the
> cause. During that same period, the third lobe of the Little Ice Age
> proceeded, ca.
>  1775, and sea level DROPPED until the nineteenth century started,
> glaciers readvanced globally, and the only explanation is the sun. We may
> not fully understand the sun, but to rule it out as the cause of the
> present climate change is real pseudo-science.
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>



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