[Coral-List] Comments on encounter RE: Goliath Grouper encounters
Steve Mussman
sealab at earthlink.net
Wed Nov 7 14:47:16 EST 2012
Remy,
I have great respect for Lesâs perspectives, however
I would point out that your assumption that his argument
more or less ended the debate and that âBasically, the net
positives of introducing these creatures {in this case,
whale sharks} to a greater audience probably outweighs the
cost of keeping a couple in captivityâ isnât always so.
I think the pivotal word to consider is âprobablyâ. Les quite
correctly pointed out that âOf course, individual institutions
vary in where they are on the path toward enlightenmentâ.
I believe he was implying that some aquariums exhibit with
higher ethical and moral standards than others. In the case of the
institution in question, shortly after replacing two whale sharks
that had died in their care, they introduced a swim/dive-with program
that regularly allows patrons direct access into the whale sharksâ
limited confines for a price. There was no reflexive condemnation
as I was willing to concede the greater marine conservation issue
up to that point. I think we have to remember that as Les said, there
is such a thing as positive peer pressure and accountability is good.
Regards,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
>From: Remy Okazaki
>Sent: Nov 7, 2012 11:05 AM
>To: Steve Mussman
>Cc: "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov"
>Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Comments on encounter RE: Goliath Grouper
encounters
>
>1) Both you and Sarah use the same argument: there are worse things
>happening to groupers/whales/dolphins, so touching them isn't bad. That
>isn't really a justification. For better or worse, we have to set
>examples for others.
>2) Les Kaufman wrote an excellent piece on whale captivity and the
>aquarium industry:
>http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/pipermail/coral-list/2008-October/006400.html
>Basically, the net positives of introducing these creatures to a greater
>audience probably outweighs the cost of keeping a couple in captivity.
>3) That said, I completely agree with your earlier email. Seeing these
>animals in the wild is amazing, and I'd probably be the last person to
>exercise restraint and not touch whatever marine animal. I've found
>holding a bulky camera housing generally helps with that problem. :)
>
>Remy
>
>On 11/6/2012 10:19 AM, Steve Mussman wrote:
>> It is understandable that there are some concerns about the message
>> conveyed in Sarah's video presentation.
>>
>> But perhaps the indignation expressed would be better served if channeled
>> towards affecting change in an entire industry that actively promotes
>> unnatural shark feeding photo ops.
>>
>> Or in challenging programs that brings boat loads of snorkelers into
close
>> proximity of the annual whale shark aggregates off the Yucatan.
>>
>> And what about whale and dolphin captivity? Keep them wild remember?
>>
>> A major American aquarium is currently requesting permission for the
>> importation of additional Beluga whales . . . how about denouncing this
>> "educational" experience?
>>
[1]http://www.georgiaaquarium.org/explore-the-aquarium/events-and-programs/b
>> elugainteractive.aspx
>>
>> Or what about the captivity of migratory whale sharks in a ten meter pool
>> and the associated dive/swim with gentle giants experience? The world's
>> leading scuba agency even offers a certification for the effort.
>>
[2]http://www.georgiaaquarium.org/explore-the-aquarium/events-and-programs/s
>> wim-with-whale-sharks.aspx
>>
>> IMO, Dr. Frias-Torres' impulsive interaction is forgivable, I've
>> seen renowned marine conservationists take similar action and I would
defend
>> them all for it's obvious that their motives and intentions were pure.
>>
>> And besides, if you can pardon the expression, there are bigger fish to
>> fry.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Martin Stelfox
>> >Sent: Nov 5, 2012 2:31 PM
>> >To: Sarah Frias-Torres , sjk012 at knights.ucf.edu, coral list
>> >Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Comments on encounter RE: Goliath Grouper
>> encounters
>> >
>> >Dear Dr. Frias-Torres
>> >
>> >Thank you for your response I appreciate your time.
>> >
>> > I would like to clearly state that I did not depict you as an
>> >irresponsible scientist. As I mentioned the work you are doing is
>> >essential and you clearly have a wealth of knowledge and experience in
>> >this area. I also agree that there are far bigger concerns facing
>> >groupers other than physical interaction but we, as scientist,
>> >understand the real problem at hand and how to interact with wildlife
>> >responsibly.
>> >
>> > I would like to draw your attention to your target audience for the
>> >video â not addressed to scientists but to the SCUBA diving community
>> >..â I have worked with many SCUBA divers over the years and time and
>> >time again I see divers touching marine wildlife, not just curious
>> >fish but also marine mammals and coral species. I think SCUBA divers
>> >are a key element in ecotourism however I do have experience with
>> >divers copying what they see other divers or scientist do, and that
>> >includes touching and chasing.
>> >
>> >Yes there are countless YouTube videos of people landing endangered
>> >species and irresponsibly handling and also footage of divers
>> >generally harassing marine life, these people are the uneducated that
>> >we need to set an example for - and this is your target audience.
>> >
>> > Obviously It would be better to have a group of experienced divers
>> >interacting passively with groupers than for them to be hooked - but
>> >not all divers have experience or knowledge in marine interactions,
>> >they simply copy what they see.
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >
>> >Martin
>> >
>> >
>> >On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jason Krumholz wrote:
>> >> All,
>> >> Some interesting points on both sides of this issue, and Sarah, I do
see
>> >> your argument that any portrayal of how these majestic fish can be
>> enjoyed
>> >> for their intrinsic value, or at least without being killed is a step
in
>> the
>> >> right direction. However, as one who has studied quite a bit on the
>> >> communication of science to the general public, I think I do need to
>> refute
>> >> a few of your points below:
>> >>
>> >> 1) You are an expert diver, and a trained and practiced scientist with
a
>> >> great deal of experience working with these fish. YOU can tell when a
>> fish
>> >> like this is not exhibiting aggressive behavior. YOU can tell when
there
>> is
>> >> a lack of courtship coloration/behavior. YOU can tell the difference
>> >> between waiting patiently and calmly for a fish to approach you, vs.
>> >> harassing it. As such, YOU probably had very little, if any impact on
the
>> >> fish pictured. John (Jane) Q. Recreational Diver is none of these
things,
>> >> and probably doesn't know enough to make the distinction. Because you
are
>> >> an expert, video of you doing stuff like this to a certain degree
carries
>> >> the implicit 'stamp of approval' for divers & tourists to handle
>> wildlife,
>> >> whether you mean for it to or not.
>> >>
>> >> 2) Whether or not the video is appropriate, the fact that there are
>> videos
>> >> of people doing worse things does nothing in support of the
>> appropriateness
>> >> of the video. By your logic, the people line fishing for the grouper
and
>> >> posting it on youtube could say "Check out this youtube of some guy
>> killing
>> >> a puppy, that's way worse, so what we did is fine by comparison."
Also,
>> as
>> >> above, there is a HUGE difference between 'some guy' posting a video
of
>> >> doing something, and an expert in the field doing it. If 'some guy'
takes
>> >> steroids, nobody cares, but when pro athletes do, it's a huge deal
>> because
>> >> it sets a bad example, regardless of their situation. We are the pro
>> >> athletes of the marine ecology world (unfortunately, the sponsorship
>> deals
>> >> and large contracts for us appear to still be pending).. Like it or
not,
>> >> everything we do gets an extra degree of scrutiny.
>> >>
>> >> 3) The inquisitive behavior you document may be partially learned.
>> Goliaths
>> >> can't tell if you're carrying a speargun or not, and a number of
positive
>> >> encounters with humans only reinforces to those fish that divers
aren't
>> >> harmful... but it only takes one spear.
>> >>
>> >> I can't say I didn't enjoy the video, and you're right, you
technically
>> >> can't stop the producer from publishing the video but at the very
least,
>> I
>> >> would encourage the videographer to point out that, in general, it's
not
>> a
>> >> good idea to touch wildlife, and that groupers CAN be aggressive, and
the
>> >> divers portrayed are expert scientists.
>> >>
>> >> My $0.02
>> >>
>> >> Jason
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Martin and Stacy,Thank your for your comments..
>> >> I have been working with endangered marine wildlife since 1992. As
such,
>> I'm
>> >> aware of the perils of people interacting with wild animals, and cases
>> where
>> >> ecotourism can go terribly wrong. In the case of goliath groupers, we
>> have a
>> >> conundrum on whether we can accept a minor disturbance as an
alternative
>> to
>> >> death. Since death is rather terminal, it seems the only logical
action
>> is
>> >> to minimize negative effects from ecotourism.
>> >> Perhaps the best way to resolve your concerns will be to take you
scuba
>> >> diving with the goliath groupers. Goliaths are extremely curious and
>> >> unafraid of divers. This inquisitive behavior has been documented by
many
>> >> scientists.. In fact, it's been a major factor in increasing their
>> >> vulnerability to extinction, as the goliaths become easy targets for
>> >> spearfishers.
>> >> Injury by a goliath grouper might occur when a diver attempts to feed
>> them.
>> >> This was not the case here. None of the scuba divers portrayed in the
>> video
>> >> fed the groupers. The divers did not chase after the groupers. The
>> goliaths
>> >> approached us on their own.
>> >> We did not interrupt spawning activity on this night. There were no
>> gravid
>> >> females, and there was a lack of courtship and courtship coloration
>> >> indicating pre-spawning behavior. And no aggression resulted from our
>> >> activities.. You can see in the video, goliaths waiting right by the
>> divers,
>> >> and staying there, with no signs of stress.
>> >> The video was produced by an independent filmmaker, who has the
freedom
>> to
>> >> post his videos in you tube.
>> >> Your concerns are important, but that's no reason to portray me as an
>> >> irresponsible scientist. In youtube, you can also find many videos of
>> >> fishers who capture goliath groupers and land them on the deck of the
>> boat,
>> >> for their own pleasure and to take pictures. All the time the goliaths
>> are
>> >> fighting in the line and the time spent out of the water, the fish are
>> >> suffering tremendous stress and being slowly asphyxiated. Not to
mention
>> >> that these fishers are violating the "possession" terms of the current
>> >> federal and state moratorium on goliath grouper harvest. Perhaps you
can
>> >> also share your concerns with the authors of every single youtube
video
>> >> where such violation is portrayed.
>> >> Now, let's consider what is more stressful for the goliath groupers:
to
>> have
>> >> a group of experienced divers not chasing you, but waiting for you to
>> >> approach them, or to be hooked, fight for your life, get landed on the
>> deck
>> >> of a boat and slowly asphyxiate until someone remembers to release you
>> back
>> >> in to the ocean.
>> >>
>> >> Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. Independent ScientistTwitter:
@GrouperDocBlog:
>> >>
>>
http://grouperluna.wordpress.comhttp://independent.academia.edu/SarahFriasTo
>> >> rres
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:16:39 0000
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Goliath Grouper encounters
>> >>> From: martinrstelfox at gmail.com
>> >>> To: sjk012 at knights.ucf.edu
>> >>> CC: sfrias_torres at hotmail.com; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear Dr. Frias-Torres.
>> >>>
>> >>> As you well know, Goliath groupers are classed as critically
>> >>> endangered and are under immense pressure due to anthropogenic
stress.
>> >>> I think that the work and research you are doing is extremely
valuable
>> >>> for the future of the species, however, I do agree with Stacy on how
>> >>> the species interaction is portrayed in the YouTube video.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have worked on numerous conservation projects around the world and
I
>> >>> have worked with and educated many non scientific minded individuals
>> >>> on current issues within marine biology. I think the most important
>> >>> tool we have as educators is to take people on an experience that
>> >>> completely removes them from what they are used to, bringing in an
>> >>> emotional experience that could change the way they perceive an
>> >>> environment or trigger an interest which may be passed on.
>> >>>
>> >>> To address the problem to SCUBA divers with footage of Goliath
>> >>> groupers being touched by scientists I think sends out completely the
>> >>> wrong message. For the average SCUBA diver, touching organisms is
>> >>> something they do not consider to be a problem in the ecosystem -
when
>> >>> in fact it is. Unnecessarily disrupting natural behaviour, not to
>> >>> mention the potential hazard to individual divers by touching
>> >>> something they shouldn't. I agree that the video should be
>> >>> reconsidered, as the target audience must understand that interfering
>> >>> with an organism's behaviour and physiology is both understudied and
>> >>> harmful to the organisms and the individual.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> Martin Stelfox,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 4:34 PM, sjk012 wrote:
>> >>> > Dear Dr. Frias-Torres and Coral-listers,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Is this really the message we are wanting to share with the
public??
>> To
>> >> approach and touch wild animals, more shockingly a Critically
Threatened
>> >> animal! I am incredibly disappointed that academics and avid divers
would
>> >> take part in this action, let alone film such an inappropriate act.
And
>> to
>> >> top it off, post it in on a globally accessible site such a youtube.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > As conservationist we should be spreading the "look don't touch"
and
>> >> "keep wildlife wild" messages. Portraying these animals as gentle
giants
>> >> further threatens their population. This video clearly demonstrates
that
>> >> touching and approaching wildlife is OK, and it is NOT. While I agree
>> this
>> >> was an amazing opportunity to see these creatures in the wild, the
>> >> continuous act of rubbing, touching, and "petting" these fish is
>> >> unacceptable.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Goliath groupers are ambush predators that use powerful suction to
>> draw
>> >> in their pray. This suction is strong enough to pull in a human's arm
and
>> >> their sharp rows of teeth can shred that person's hand and arm trying
to
>> >> remove it. These divers are very luckly they did not get injured and
>> >> promoting this action with a video threatens other divers and
threatens
>> reef
>> >> fish. Fish become stressed when they are touched and the mucus layer,
>> which
>> >> is the first line of defense against disease, is disrupted. It is
quite
>> >> possible that this invasive encounter by humans during their spawning
>> period
>> >> was enough to disrupt their activity that night, but the physical
>> touching
>> >> clearly detracted the animals risking the reproductive act and likely
>> caused
>> >> aggression.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I highly encourage that this video is removed from youtube and that
>> >> Dr... Frias-torres et al. rethink the messages the video portrays...I
>> don't
>> >> think touching critically endangered animals during spawning, or
touching
>> >> any wild animal for that matter, will ever be a good conservation
message
>> to
>> >> share with the public.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Stacy
>> >>> > Aquatic and Conservation Biologist
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ________________________________________
>> >>> > From: Sarah Frias-Torres [sfrias_torres at hotmail.com]
>> >>> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:42 PM
>> >>> > To: coral list
>> >>> > Subject: [Coral-List] Goliath Grouper encounters
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Dear coral-listers
>> >>> > Just wanted to share some extraordinary encounters with a
charismatic
>> >> coral reef fish we almost lost to extinction: the goliath grouper.
>> >>> > We dove a wreck at night, in southeast Florida during this year's
>> >> spawning aggregation season. We were fortunate to have a couple of
>> >> filmmakers on board who produced this video, including the text
provided
>> in
>> >> You Tube..
>> >>> > The 6.5 minute video is not addressed to scientists but to the
SCUBA
>> >> diving community. An example of reaching out beyond academic research.
>> >>> > I'm the diver with a yellow bandana around minute 5.
>> >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Ho87oiUo4
>> >>> >
>> >>> > You can learn more about goliath groupers in my recent paper
>> >>> >
http://grouperluna.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/guilt-free-goliath-group
>> >>> > ers/
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Enjoy
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. Independent ScientistTwitter:
>> >>> > @GrouperDocBlog:
>> >>> >
http://grouperluna.wordpress.comhttp://independent.academia.edu/Sara
>> >>> > hFriasTorres
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Coral-List mailing list
>> >>> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> >>> > http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Coral-List mailing list
>> >> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> >> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
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>>
>> References
>>
>> 1.
http://www.georgiaaquarium.org/explore-the-aquarium/events-and-programs/belu
gainteractive.aspx
>> 2.
http://www.georgiaaquarium.org/explore-the-aquarium/events-and-programs/swim
-with-whale-sharks.aspx
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>
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