[Coral-List] Content filtered message notification

Wed Oct 31 12:58:36 EDT 2012

Regarding the thread on climate skepticism, recent events may change all of
this. In class discussions we are often split between those students who
argue that New Orleans got what it should have expected being largely below
sea level and those that argue for social justice, citing the
disenfranchisement of those in the lower ninth ward. In truth, both have
valid points. However, I remember CNN coverage of the last storm (less than
a year ago) threatening New York City with Ali Velshi standing on the edge
of the East River. The storm surge (and tide) subsided just as the river
was starting to over-top the concrete. This time, however, it didn't stop
and, in addition to all that damage above ground, the subway flooded. This
is going to happen again..... and again. London has already built huge
flood gates as have other major financial centers. Global sea level will be
higher next year and storm intensity will be greater - only by a very small
and perhaps immeasurable amount, but eventually these factors will again
coalesce to create the next "perfect storm". So...... when the debate in my
class again comes around to why we continue to pour all those dollars into
New Orleans, I can add New York to the mix. Sea level is rising and weather
patterns are getting more variable. As a result, the coincidence of "freak"
events that cause new records will increase. Unfortunately, we initially
fixed on the term "global warming", which was a tough sell to skeptics.
Fortunately, this has morphed to "climate change", a term we can more
effectively champion - if we try.

Our main problem is that we are not particularly good at advocating our
position. So, in a way, we had it coming and should quit whining about
other people who are more effective in the public debate. We're getting our
butts kicked.... and for very good reason. I can remember when I started as
a young scientist - applied science was "dirty" and "beneath us". It was
hard to get my colleagues to either advocate their ideas.... or to get
involved in things like working with park management. Then, depending on
how cynical you are, a combination of increased public awareness and NSF
funds getting tighter encouraged us to start looking to organizations like
NOAA and NPS for support. However, we still hesitated to make our science
accessible because (and, again, depending on your level of cycisism) we
either wanted to maintain our "integrity" and "objectivity", or just
thought the public wasn't smart enough to understand all those complex
ideas that we scientists did.

SO, here we are. One could correctly note that the percentage of folks who
do not believe in climate change is pretty much the same as those who don't
believe in evolution. Whatever we attribute this to, we are losing the
debate. We can isolate ourselves in chat rooms and list serves pointing out
how evil those nay-sayers are or how foolish the public is to believe them,
or....... we can get off our butts and spend more intellectual energy
"getting dirty". We often lose sight of the fact that if we don't engage
the public, they won't embrace our views. Some on this list have worked
very hard to do just this and I apologize to them for lumping them into the
larger uncommunicative masses. It's easier for those of us in institutions
where undergraduate education is a higher priority than grantsmanship
because we have to face students who are smarter than we are every day.
However, we still need to figure out ways to get our of our comfort zone
and outside the college walls. And, that's not writing a book instead of an
article if it's going to be read by largely the same audience..... or
creating web sites that believers will flock to. It's talking to the Rotary
Club, the Chamber of Commerce or retirement homes and not giving that guest
lecture at another university. Web pages with tricky widgets are cool, but
that's not as effective as sitting down with a single "honest" skeptic (and
they do exist) and trying to talk to their reasonable side.

Sorry.... I've rambled on way too long, especially given recent
admonishments about length (my defense is that I rarely post). So I'll stop
abruptly, hoping that at least we won't have to open another 50 short
comments on Mr Starck. I'll try to spend more of my energy on the public
and less on arguing who's science is real and "pseudo".

Dennis

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Jim Hendee <jim.hendee at noaa.gov> wrote:

> Dennis, I think this didn't go through because of the attached little
> lobster icon.  Try again.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <mailman-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Date: Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:16 PM
> Subject: Content filtered message notification
> To: coral-list-owner at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>
>
> The attached message matched the coral-list mailing list's content
> filtering rules and was prevented from being forwarded on to the list
> membership.  You are receiving the only remaining copy of the
> discarded message.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:07:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] DR. Starck conflict of interest?
> Regarding the thread on climate skepticism, recent events may change all
> of this. In class discussions we are often split between those students who
> argue that New Orleans got what it should have expected being largely below
> sea level and those that argue for social justice, citing the
> disenfranchisement of those in the lower ninth ward. In truth, both have
> valid points. However, I remember CNN coverage of the last storm (less than
> a year ago) threatening New York City with Ali Velshi standing on the edge
> of the East River. The storm surge (and tide) subsided just as the river
> was starting to over-top the concrete. This time, however, it didn't stop
> and, in addition to all that damage above ground, the subway flooded. This
> is going to happen again..... and again. London has already built huge
> flood gates as have other major financial centers. Global sea level will be
> higher next year and storm intensity will be greater - only by a very small
> and perhaps immeasurable amount, but eventually these factors will again
> coalesce to create the next "perfect storm". So...... when the debate in my
> class again comes around to why we continue to pour all those dollars into
> New Orleans, I can add New York to the mix. Sea level is rising and weather
> patterns are getting more variable. As a result, the coincidence of "freak"
> events that cause new records will increase. Unfortunately, we initially
> fixed on the term "global warming", which was a tough sell to skeptics.
> Fortunately, this has morphed to "climate change", a term we can more
> effectively champion - if we try.
>
> Our main problem is that we are not particularly good at advocating our
> position. So, in a way, we had it coming and should quit whining about
> other people who are more effective in the public debate. We're getting our
> butts kicked.... and for very good reason. I can remember when I started as
> a young scientist - applied science was "dirty" and "beneath us". It was
> hard to get my colleagues to either advocate their ideas.... or to get
> involved in things like working with park management. Then, depending on
> how cynical you are, a combination of increased public awareness and NSF
> funds getting tighter encouraged us to start looking to organizations like
> NOAA and NPS for support. However, we still hesitated to make our science
> accessible because (and, again, depending on your level of cycisism) we
> either wanted to maintain our "integrity" and "objectivity", or just
> thought the public wasn't smart enough to understand all those complex
> ideas that we scientists did.
>
> SO, here we are. One could correctly note that the percentage of folks who
> do not believe in climate change is pretty much the same as those who don't
> believe in evolution. Whatever we attribute this to, we are losing the
> debate. We can isolate ourselves in chat rooms and list serves pointing out
> how evil those nay-sayers are or how foolish the public is to believe them,
> or....... we can get off our butts and spend more intellectual energy
> "getting dirty". We often lose sight of the fact that if we don't engage
> the public, they won't embrace our views. Some on this list have worked
> very hard to do just this and I apologize to them for lumping them into the
> larger uncommunicative masses. It's easier for those of us in institutions
> where undergraduate education is a higher priority than grantsmanship
> because we have to face students who are smarter than we are every day.
> However, we still need to figure out ways to get our of our comfort zone
> and outside the college walls. And, that's not writing a book instead of an
> article if it's going to be read by largely the same audience..... or
> creating web sites that believers will flock to. It's talking to the Rotary
> Club, the Chamber of Commerce or retirement homes and not giving that guest
> lecture at another university. Web pages with tricky widgets are cool, but
> that's not as effective as sitting down with a single "honest" skeptic (and
> they do exist) and trying to talk to their reasonable side.
>
> Sorry.... I've rambled on way too long, especially given recent
> admonishments about length (my defense is that I rarely post). So I'll stop
> abruptly, hoping that at least we won't have to open another 50 short
> comments on this guy Starck who seems totally underwhelming as a topic of
> discussion. I'll spend my energy on the public and not learning more about
> this clown.
>
> [?]
>
> Dennis
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 7:19 AM, martina <
> m.milanese at studioassociatogaia.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ian for stressing this important node.
>> The point, however, remains that we know what's going on. But people
>> like Dr. Starck get to the news. We don't...
>>
>> Maybe besides finding effective ways to communicate about climate change
>> (and many other topics) we should also help people understand what is
>> like being a researcher... I mean, the good that kids dream of, but also
>> the bad that we deal with on a daily basis - including but not limited
>> to struggling with spending reviews, unstable careers and harsh private
>> choices. Never asked yourself  "what for? And sitll running...
>>
>> Another point that may be good to clarify with the public is that
>> scientists judge and validate science (although I agree that the
>> peer-reviewed process is not flawless). That's a great example of people
>> working for free for a common cause that is the advancement of our
>> understanding of the world, for the common good.
>>
>> Are there interests at stake in this? For sure yes, nothing human is
>> perfect. Yet, I like to believe that most of the system is real...
>>
>> Martina
>>
>> Il 29/10/12 16.11, Ian Zink ha scritto:
>> > All,
>> > I'd just like to add an interesting point to the topic - Dr. Starck
>> heavily criticizes ecologists for what has been dubbed "getting rich" off
>> their work.  Dr. Starck states that lack of disclosure of conflicts of
>> interests in funding that overshadows outcomes of studies: I would assume
>> implying that one hand washes the other and resulting in some large scale
>> conspiracy that governments and researchers and managers all lie in the
>> same bed to vindictively control access to resources?
>> >
>> > Has anyone questioned the conflict of interest from Dr. Starck's
>> persepective?  Among other great works and groups Dr. Starck has been a
>> member of (he has spent a substantial effort extorting his life's works -
>> which DO include a number interesting and novel works), he is a member of
>> the Scientific Adivsory Panel of the Australian Climate Science Coalition,
>> "a climate change skeptics website created by the the Australian
>> Environment Foundation (AEF), a spin-off group created by the the corporate
>> funded think tank, the Institute of Public Affairs."
>> >
>> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Australian_Climate_Science_Coalition
>> >
>> > Check out the Aust. Climate Science Coalition, interesting...
>> > http://www.auscsc.org.au/
>> >
>> > Institute of Public Affairs (for which Dr. Starck writes articles
>> though I can't readily find a more solid connection) "...supports the free
>> market of ideas, the free flow of capital, a limited and efficient
>> government, evidence-based public policy, the rule of law, and
>> representative democracy."  http://ipa.org.au/about
>> >
>> > Supposedly, the IPA is well connected to big corporate donors: "The IPA
>> funded by its membership which include both private individuals and
>> businesses.. Among these businesses are ExxonMobil,[4] Telstra, WMC
>> Resources, BHP Billiton, Phillip Morris,[5] Murray Irrigation Limited,[6]
>> and Visy Industries..  IPA donors have also included Clough Engineering,
>> Caltex, Shell and Esso..[7] Other donors were electricity and mining
>> companies, as well as British American Tobacco (BAT).[7]"  The IPA also has
>> ties to American think-tanks such as the Heartland Institute.
>> >
>> > One can keep searching for hours to try to find the ties between
>> climate change-denial webs; one thing is certain though, Dr. Starck has his
>> own agenda, and doesn't seem to back it up with research, just personal
>> opinions.
>> >
>> > FOLLOW THE MONEY.
>> >
>> > Thanks for reading my rant (or continuous cut and pastes from various
>> sources).
>> > -Ian
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov[coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.
>> .noaa.gov] on behalf of Dishon L.. Murage [lionelmurage at yahoo.com]
>> > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 1:31 AM
>> > To: coral-list at coral..aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Great Barrier Reef is rapidly loosing coral
>> (Eugene Shinn)
>> >
>> > Sorry,but my impression on the argument by Dr Stark is that its rather
>> confusing and not well presented.Climate change is no longer an issue for
>> discussion but a reality and engaging in an argument stating otherwise
>> indicates a person who wants to draw attention to himself or someone who
>> has strong vested interest that need protected by denying the reality.
>> >
>> > That's my take on Dr Stark presentation.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Dishon Lionel Murage
>> > P.O. Box 1976-80100,
>> > Mombasa,
>> > Kenya
>> >
>> >
>> > e-mail: lionelmurage at yahoo.com
>> > Tel: +254722270298 or +254713900361
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >   From: "coral-list-request at coral.aoml.noaa.gov"<
>> coral-list-request at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> > To: coral-list at coral..aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:00 PM
>> > Subject: Coral-List Digest, Vol 50, Issue 21
>> >
>> > Send Coral-List mailing list submissions to
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>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Coral-List digest...", e.g., cut and paste the
>> > Subject line from the individual message you are replying to. Also,
>> > please only include quoted text from prior posts that is necessary to
>> > make your point; avoid re-sending the entire Digest back to the list.
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >     1. Great Barrier Reef is rapidly loosing coral (Eugene Shinn)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 12:26:14 -0400
>> > From: Eugene Shinn<eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>> > Subject: [Coral-List] Great Barrier Reef is rapidly loosing coral
>> > To: coral-list at coral..aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
>> > Message-ID:<a06230936ccadc2a54198@[131.247.136.119]>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>> >
>> > Dear listers, I just received a most interesting publication on the
>> > GBR situation. It is from Dr. Walter Stark who I briefly knew in the
>> > 1960s when he was receiving his doctorate from the University of
>> > Miami.  Walter grew up in the Florida Keys and after receiving his
>> > degree sailed to Australia where he has remained as a researcher and
>> > Dive tour operator. Walter is an original and has been around longer
>> > than most Australian reef researchers. He received no government
>> > research funding and therefore has a decidedly different view of what
>> > is happening to the GBR. I know many readers will disagree but it may
>> > be worth examining his alternative view of what is happening on the
>> > GBR. Remember, I am just the messenger. Gene
>> >
>> http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2012/10/reef-alarmists-jump-the-shark
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> > No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
>> > ------------------------------------ -----------------------------------
>> > E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
>> > University of South Florida
>> > College of Marine Science Room 221A
>> > 140 Seventh Avenue South
>> > St. Petersburg, FL 33701
>> > <eshinn at marine.usf.edu>
>> > Tel 727 553-1158----------------------------------
>> > -----------------------------------
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Coral-List mailing list
>> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> > http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>> >
>> > End of Coral-List Digest, Vol 50, Issue 21
>> > ******************************************
>> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard
> Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 775-8346
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
>
>
>
>

-- 
Dennis Hubbard
Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
(440) 775-8346

* "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
 Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"