[Coral-List] Once upon a time

Szmant, Alina szmanta at uncw.edu
Wed Apr 3 17:51:10 EDT 2013 

Thanks Chris for the clarification.  But I stand by my words, and in fact, I am not advocating more science either.  We know what the problems are, and the answers, we just do not have the common will and guts to do anything about it.  Sadly, we do not need social scientists, or wiser economists (although this would really help!), or more science.  We need intelligent, knowledgeable and gutsy  benevolent dictators.  But those only seem to exist in movies and fairy tales, so going back to where I started, we are doomed.  No time for the blah-blah-blah slow methods to work, unless billions of people suddenly get it, change their ways over-night (i.e. next 3-5 years to magically turn things around, turn off the CO2 spigots etc).  Not gonna happen!.

*************************************************************************
Dr. Alina M. Szmant
Professor of Marine Biology
Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology
University of North Carolina Wilmington
5600 Marvin Moss Ln
Wilmington NC 28409 USA
tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
*******************************************************

From: Christopher Hawkins [mailto:chwkins at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 4:25 PM
To: Szmant, Alina; frahome at yahoo.com; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Cc: loomisd at ecu.edu
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Once upon a time

Alina, Francesca, and all-

Once upon a time, when resource management agencies were first born, they staffed themselves with biologists who could ensure there was enough game to hunt and fish to catch for the relatively few people who were doing the hunting and fishing. They had no interference from pesky commoners pointing out the taxes they pay for public land and water management and throwing around terms like "public trust resources." They could even introduce all sorts of species that they believe would be good to hunt and fish and rotenone entire lake ecosystems to make sure these new species could thrive. What a magical time it must have been to be a biologist! God-like, almost.

Of course, times have changed drastically. Millions and millions more people use and enjoy coastal resources, pay taxes and user fees to be able to do so, and hold a diverse and expansive set of values regarding those ecosystems. Francesca points to this when she says that the task is now more about managing human society. How you do that without social science is anyone's guess.  Unfortunately, these facts haven't registered completely, and so many programs continue to educate our up-and-coming biologists in a dead paradigm - that resource management need not pay attention to social values and management preferences, that biologists, and biologists alone, remain the keepers of ecological truth, and that if people were just smarter and would listen more to the experts, all would saved, all would be solved. We would find this intolerably arrogant in another field, but across ours, it remains Gospel in some circles. Power is a tough thing to lose.

Alina stated that the first priority of social scientists is to satisfy the "basic needs" of the 'people.' Not so. The first priority of a social scientist is to ensure that folks who ultimately make the policy decisions have a comprehensive set of data so that those decisions can balance the competing needs of nature AND people. And of course this is so, since if the system worked any other way, we'd just need biologists to tell us where to place the armed guards and who to shoot for what offenses and who to take jail for the others.

Now, a lot of aim has been taken at economists. I'm not the best person to pipe up on that, since I am not one. But even economists know that some methods to value nature and natural resource experiences have inherent haziness.

But in terms of scientific rigor, I again say that I will place my "soft" (and old-fashioned and misleading term) science theory, methods, and analysis against anyone's.

Chris


________________________________
From: "Szmant, Alina" <szmanta at uncw.edu<mailto:szmanta at uncw.edu>>
To: "frahome at yahoo.com<mailto:frahome at yahoo.com>" <frahome at yahoo.com<mailto:frahome at yahoo.com>>; "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Fw: What agency should list corals

And sadly, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head, not necessarily by intention.

As long as the first priority of our global (or regional, or national, or local) social scientists, governments and management agencies is to satisfy the "basic needs" of the 'people', then our planet is doomed.  Someone wrote in a recent post about managing ecosystems:  it has been stated many times over, we don't manage ecosystems, we manage how people interact, use or abuse ecosystems.  As long as people (especially poor people) have greater right to take that fin off of that shark than the shark has to go about merrily using its fin, or as someone brought up at a recent workshop, or than some old lady up in the mountains who loves the idea of that shark safely out there doing its thing, then social sciences and government is failing all of us.  We keep proselytizing around the edges but we are not doing anything to control  that big elephant in the room, the impending and soon to come 9 billion of us (almost 50 % more people than now live on Earth in the next 43 years).  We spend tons more money on how to save and prolong every human life and not much on how to prevent so many babies from being born and reduce birth rate.  We are hampered by political correctness, by religious issues, by our inability to impose limitations on the reproductive rights of anyone who wants to have a baby and the population bomb keeps ticking. Yes, birth rates in some places are decreasing and even below replacement for a few small countries, but not enough to slow down or reverse the increase in human population.  And now a number of nations are worried about not having enough workers, and who will take care of the bulge of us people getting older...and want to incentivize women to have more children!!!

I am glad I won't be around to see it.  I fear for what my 24 year old daughter will experience in her life time.  I do not think that the social scientists of today or the economists get it, and certainly our big businesses and government agencies don't.

There are some really dedicated and magnificent people out there who do get it, and who are really working hard to get the word out (many of the people on this list), but there are not enough of them and their voices are like whispers in the wind, trampled by the hordes of developers,  oil company magnates, pharmaceutical companies, commercial fishermen, recreational fishing clubs, agribusiness corporations, etc etc etc etc etc (that is part of the problem...too many etcs).

My apologies to all you optimists out there, but I am still waiting for that big sign from above, below or any direction that there is reason for hope...  A real sign, not just another postage stamp sized MPA with no armed guards to enforce the regulations. All I see is bad, poor and worse actions happening all over the place, in spite of the great intentions of a few millions of us (drop in the human bucket) who are doing our best to get the word out and influence the decision making process.



*************************************************************************
Dr. Alina M. Szmant
Professor of Marine Biology
Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology
University of North Carolina Wilmington
5600 Marvin Moss Ln
Wilmington NC 28409 USA
tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
*******************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>] On Behalf Of frahome at yahoo.com<mailto:frahome at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 3:09 AM
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: [Coral-List] Fw: What agency should list corals

What does maximizing social welfare means?
I think social scientists should focus on the concept of fundamental human needs, then work with the society, other scientists etc, on identifying and promoting ways to satisfy these fundamental needs, that have a minimal impact/ecological footprint. This is the opposite of what is being done nowadays by economists for example: fabricating needs and promoting resource intensive, dubious, to say the least, satisfiers.
Social scientists should not forget to multiply by 9 billions (soon to come world population) the resources required by any of their identified social welfare or perception inclusion proposal to make it meaningful, fair and sustainable in the "medium-short term".

Simply "making sure that (current) society's perceptions, preferences, attitudes, values etc. are brought into policy-making" sounds a somehow limited and static approach compared to the great role social scientists could play in finding a solutions to the problems of our days.
Also the task is not really about managing resources or other species but is about managing human society and ourselves as a species.

An attempt to describing "fundamental human needs" that I find particularly interesting is the one developed by the economist Manfred Max-Neef. You can find a brief description here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs
or best in his articles about "Human Scale Development":
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nlow9x3k7lxuorh/2007-manfred-max-neef-fundamental-human-needs.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v107a9kd7zfsi7n/Max-neef_Human_Scale_development.pdf

According to him "Fundamental human needs are constant through all human cultures and across historical time periods. What changes over time and between cultures is the strategies by which these needs are satisfied".
I call social scientists to work out better strategies then the one advertised nowadays.

Francesca
PS. I am sorry but I have serious troubles in considering most branches of economics an hard science due to its many false assumptions, failed and missed predictions, disregard to very important obvious variables and sort of implicit agenda.




----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Christopher Hawkins <chwkins at yahoo.com<mailto:chwkins at yahoo.com>>
To: "coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] What agency should list corals

All-

It is disappointing to see some seemingly very intelligent folks post some of these remarks.

I have participated in a number of natural resource social science forums as well, so a I am quite confused with the statements made in this string of emails.


I will re-iterate that whether you are biological scientist or a social scientist, you are a *scientist*, and therefore (typically) interested in understanding the phenomena in a reliable, valid, representative, and generalizable way. As a human dimensions specialist, I am charged with making sure that society's perceptions, preferences, attitudes, values etc. are brought into policy-making in a rigorous and objective way. I am not sure how that all of a sudden becomes me ignoring that there are "very real limits to the level at which the natural systems and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system ceases to function in a normal way, if at all.  Of course there are, and every social scientist worthy of the title would agree. Throwing that statement  out there re-enforces a misguided stereotype and confuses one profession with another. For what purpose, I'm not sure.

Managing nature resources is as much a social endeavor as it is an ecological one. The goals, objectives, and reasons we manage areas or species are derived from society: the last time I looked there was no divine stone tablet telling us how these places, animals, plants, and habitats should look. Attempting to manage such resources without solid social science would be as silly and inadvisable as attempting to manage them without solid ecological science.

Best,
Chris


Christopher Hawkins, Ph.D.
Fisheries Social Scientist

University of Hawaii/NOAA Fisheries Service Honolulu


From: Pedro H. Rodríguez phernanrod at yahoo.com
Sent: Thu Mar 28 14:38:40 EDT 2013
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

WE scientists? The social and eonomic scientists dealing with natural-resource use apply the same scientific philosophy as you and me, Dennis, and their goal is to maximize social welfare under the constraint of sustainable resources. I see no conflict of interest.

Pedro
________________________________
From: Quenton <qdokken at gulfmex..org<mailto:qdokken at gulfmex..org>>
To: "'Szmant, Alina'" <szmanta at uncw.edu<mailto:szmanta at uncw.edu>>; 'Pedro H.. Rodríguez' <phernanrod at yahoo.com<mailto:phernanrod at yahoo.com>>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

Good Day All;

Social and economic practice do not necessarily follow the constructs of science and certainly not the realities of the limits of nature.  In economic and social science forums, rarely have I heard discussed the fact that there are very real limits to the level at which the natural  systems and resources can be impacted before the living resource and/or system ceases to function in a normal way, if at all.  The belief seems to be that natural habitats, wild populations, and the cycles of ecosystem dynamics can be compromised infinitely to serve the needs and wants of humans. The fact is that nature did not evolve in a manner to be sustainable under the variety and quantity of insults and compromises that humans inflict.  Nor is nature geared to adapt on a human generational time scale.  Every environmental issue we face today can be discussed in terms of lack of understanding/acceptance of the fact that nature can only be compromised to a limited extent before it fails. Our regulatory system of issuing permits is based on the belief that nature can be compromised infinitely.  Yes, society must have jobs and business opportunities to exist and flourish.
Yes, there must be
access to natural resources to meet the needs and wants of humans/society.  But, at some point planning and permitting must factor the limits of nature into the model.  Nature does not take into account an individual's or community's culture, history, religion, uniqueness, dreams, financial need, property rights, or any other purely human contrivance. In and of itself, nature is a perpetual motion machine.  Nature will function just fine until something or someone disrupts its cycles to a point that the engine stops.. Very clearly we can see the train coming at us and we don't seem to be able to get off the track.

Quenton Dokken, Ph.D.
President/CEO
Gulf of Mexico Foundation, Inc.

361-882-3939 office
361-442-6064 cell
qdokken at gulfmex.org<mailto:qdokken at gulfmex.org>

Office:
3833 South Staples
Suite S214
Corpus Christi,
TX 78411

Mail:
PMB 51
5403 Everhart Rd.
Corpus Christi, TX 78411

www.gulfmex.org<http://www.gulfmex.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>] On Behalf Of Szmant, Alina
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:09 PM
To: Pedro H.. Rodríguez; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

I think the biggest difference between the natural sciences and the social sciences might be in our views of what is sustainable...  Many of us  natural scientists think that the terms "sustainable development"  or "sustainable exploitation of resources"  are oxymorons!   There is nothing sustainable about human development or exploitation as long as human population growth is not halted and human population size is greatly reduced.

*************************************************************************
Dr. Alina M. Szmant
Professor of Marine Biology
Center for Marine Science and Dept of Biology and Marine Biology University of North Carolina Wilmington
5600 Marvin Moss Ln
Wilmington NC 28409 USA
tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913 http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
*******************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>] On Behalf Of Pedro H.
Rodríguez
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:39 PM
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] To Dennis Hubbard (What agency should list corals under the Endangered)

WE scientists? The social and eonomic scientists dealing with natural-resource use apply the same scientific philosophy as you and me, Dennis, and their goal is to maximize social welfare under the constraint of sustainable resources. I see no conflict of interest.

Pedro
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