[Coral-List] political arguments on coral-list

Christopher Hawkins chwkins at yahoo.com
Tue May 20 14:43:37 EDT 2014


I do see value in limiting overly political threads on the Coral List. However, I can't recall any offhand that I have feel have been too egregious in this regard. 

Coincidentally, in from of me is a copy of The Politics of Ecosystem Management (Cortner and Moote, 1999) that I have been re-thumbing through. I'm also a proponent of Kennedy and Thomas' (1995) conceptual model that places natural resource values in an interrelated set of four systems: natural environmental system; social system; economic system; and political system.  

So, I think threads that discuss the political elements of coral reef science and management are appropriate, since they reflect the reality of  coastal resources management in the 21st Century. However, like all topics on the List, I'd like to see them be information driven, fairly objective, and be used to inform our collective understanding and management of coral reef ecosystems (which of course in include humans).



 From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
To: Eugene Shinn <eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>; coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> 
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 11:42 AM
Subject: [Coral-List] political arguments on coral-list


     Below you can read two recent postings by Gene Shinn.  The most recent
talks more about ideology and religion than about the climate change
argument.  The previous one appears to be completely about politics, I
couldn't find a mention of coral reefs.
      If I think Gene is spreading things that aren't true, I think it is
incumbent on someone to respond to his assertions, or else he gets to
spread things that appear to be untrue, unchallenged.  (Same goes for me,
by the way)  If no one else will respond, I feel I must.   Gene has a
history of posts on geology of coral reefs or other aspects of reefs, and
posts that argue about climate change and politics.  I appreciate his
geology and reef posts, I learn from them, I thank Gene for them.  I think
they are totally appropriate for coral-list.

       The question is, do coral-listers want to see lots of messages
arguing about politics?

       What do people think, is coral-list the best place to argue over
Gene's political views?  Or would "coral reef free-for-all" be better, or
perhaps a political discussion list-serve?  Are we here to argue politics
or discuss coral reefs?

       What do people think?

Gene wrote:

"Steve, Have you ever met a scientist that did not have an ideology? In
my experience with thousands of scientists both industry, government,
and academia, I can't recall any who did not have an ideology of one
sort or another be they Christians, Moslems, Buddists, Hindu, atheist,
etc. A scientist can always claim his or her  results are statistical
correct and pure but remember the scientist still decides what subject
to work on in the first place. It can work both ways. We both pretty
much know where most coral reef scientists heads are. I would not expect
them to read the
NIPCC report even thou it has a large coral reef section based on peer
reviewed literature. You can find that in chapter 6
http://climatechangereconsidered.org/  The reader should be remindned
that all the media buzz about the IPCC report is based on the Summary
for Policy Makers which was not written by the scientists who wrote the
IPCC report.  Gene"


No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
------------------------------------ -----------------------------------
E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
University of South Florida
College of Marine Science Room 221A
140 Seventh Avenue South
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
<eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
Tel 727 553-1158
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------

"Richard asked why I had not addressed several posting. Well, one has to
wonder if these rants gets us anywhere? I am reminded of the following
lines I pirated from a recent blog. " The crisis we face is not one of
politics in just one sphere, that of government. Even more sinister
politics have long been afoot in the scientific sphere from whence this
whole knowing of the matter of anthropogenic carbon sprang. The world of
science is a most unpleasant guild-like, politically active, and
aggressive world. It has its warring sides and those sides have
territories they claim and fiercely defend." This rang a bell because I
have seen many hypotheses come and go. By the time one is gone few even
remember it.
     Back to one of the postings which asked, Is the Pew foundation any
different than the Heritige foundation? Of course its like night and
day. One is left wing and the other on the right. Both have lots of
money. You believe what you want to believe. Its like comparing Mother
Jones magazine to the Wall Street Journal. Take your pick. I have come
to believe there really are two kinds of people and it is not simply
Male and Female. We are wired differently from birth and yes it helps to
follow the money. Education seldom changes the wiring..
Regardless of what one might feel about Craig Idso people should
evaluate the papers he cited in the Heritage website I posted and stop
the ad hominem/kill the messenger attacks. Those were peer reviewed
papers. IPCC papers are peer reviewed (mainly by each other). An IPCC
member writer would not send his coral reef paper to Idso for review and
visa versa. The lines have been drawn. Gene"


No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
------------------------------------ -----------------------------------
E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
University of South Florida
College of Marine Science Room 221A
140 Seventh Avenue South
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
<eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
Tel 727 553-1158
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------

Douglas Fenner
Contractor with Ocean Associates, Inc.
PO Box 7390
Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA

phone 1 684 622-7084
website:  http://independent.academia.edu/DouglasFenner
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