[Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs

rnharag rnharag at uol.com.br
Fri Oct 24 11:23:52 EDT 2014


Dear Gene, I would be agree with your affirmation "Too bad we will not see 
the Keys corals spring back in our lifetime", only if we were dependant of 
management and technologies.
I am a person that believes that 'the unit is strength and performs'. And 
since the application of management and technologie are not enough to save 
corals in their Florida Key Sanctuary, neither in others MPA's in the world. 
I would propose the acceptance of others means, such as the methodology I 
have used at Fernando de Noronha, Abrolhos e othes APAs in Brazil.
I have the capacity of create huge protection areas to protect the corals 
from the bleaching threat caused by the global climate imbalance 
(acidification; sea warm; and other Earth imbalance).
The MPA's in the World, even those who are working in their restoration 
projects, will only be safe, in the future, if accept this aid for yours 
management efforts.
At my site www.coralsurvival.com.br I present more details about this 
subject.

Thanks and sorry about my english.

Ricardo Haraguchi
rnharag at uol.com.br
www.sobrevivenciadoscorais.com.br
www.coralsurvival.com.br


-----Mensagem Original----- 
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:31:14 -0400
From: Eugene Shinn <eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
Subject: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Message-ID: <54492D52.9010103 at mail.usf.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Wow! The letters by Peter Sale and Alina Szmant touched a lot of nerves
and set peoples juices flowing. Alina was so right! I saw the proof of
that in the Florida Keys 3 months ago.I gather what started this thread
was the draft recovery plan for Acropora. I had not read the latest plan
but read an earlier version a few years ago. In the most recent version
the size of the critical habitat for Acropora in Florida has been
reduced somewhat. An earlier version was larger and included areas where
geological research indicated Acropora never grew.

The latest draft plan does however; contain an abundance of good
information. Clearly a lot of time and work went into its preparation. I
only wish there had been one or two coral reef geologists on the
project. Recovery plans in the Keys are difficult considering the
rapidly increasing population and at the same time having been a coral
reef sanctuary for more than two decades. Unfortunately corals have
continued to die in the sanctuary and have been doing so since the late
1970s. Clearly there was little management could do to prevent coral
decline and it is doubtful anything can be done to bring the corals back
to their previous state in our lifetime. Transplanting may help
somewhat. Coral death in the keys is not new. Geological research
determined two 500-year periods of staghorn absence well before there
were people in the Keys. One centered at 4,500 years ago and one center
at 3,000 years. In addition the area contains several submerged reef
flats created by elkhorn coral that had once grown up to sea level.
These submerged reef flats are now submerged under 20 ft. of water and
carbon 14 dating indicated they ceased growing approximately 5,000 years
before present. Why did they not recommence growth, as sea level rose to
its present level is anyone's guess? If elkhorn died around 5,000 years
ago and did not regrow how can we expect them to grow back now?
Furthermore, the present CO_2 level will remain in the atmosphere for at
least another 100 years if all sources were stopped today. The following
sentence in the draft recovery plan seems significant. *"Because many of
the important threats to the recovery of elkhorn and staghorn corals are
not directly manageable, the recovery strategy pursues simultaneous
actions to address critical demographic factors, the range of threat,
and knowledge gaps."* Huh?  That reads like the planners already know
corals will not rebound soon. And yes, there certainly appears to be a
knowledge gap. I noticed that African dust gets short thrift in the
plan. It only discusses microbes. It did not consider the arsenic,
copper, lead 210, Beryllium 7, Phosphorous, iron, and DDT it transports?
They are all components of the dust that showers the entire Caribbean
Sea for a few months each summer. Enough said! There is nevertheless
wealth of good information in the plan. Too bad we will not see the Keys
corals spring back in our lifetime. Gene

-- 

-- 


No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
------------------------------------ -----------------------------------
E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
University of South Florida
College of Marine Science Room 221A
140 Seventh Avenue South
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
<eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
Tel 727 553-1158
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------



On 10/22/2014 6:15 PM, Greg Challenger wrote:
> Energy units and land requirements to support an individual are dynamic 
> and have changed a lot over time with advancements.....no?   I know a well 
> known ecologist who calculated the earth population explosion back in 68 
> as well.    None of it has yet come to pass.....because advancements 
> intervened.  I hear what Francesca is saying....and I too am an optimist.
>
> Ps. When the world had 3,5 billion people it was the 60s I think.  Id say 
> we most certainly did have environmental catastrophes then. Go back even 
> farther....Hanford.... Love canal,  bikini atoll.....WWII.  If you think 
> the Iraq war or the BP spill were big, they don't hold a candle to WWII.
>
> Thanks for the provocative discussion
>
> Greg Challenger
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:50 PM, "Szmant, Alina" <szmanta at uncw.edu> wrote:
>>
>> The figure of how many humans (3 to 4 Billion) the Earth can support with 
>> a reasonable standard of living (at most 1/2 of the US standard), and 
>> still have some nature left around us,  is not mine.  It has been 
>> calculated by a number of well-known ecologists based on energy units, 
>> how much land it takes to support a person's needs (while still leaving 
>> land for wildlife), and other ways.  Richard Leakey quoted that number to 
>> me a few years back when I asked him the question.  I have seen it 
>> explained in a number of publications (check out that book I recommended 
>> awhile back "Life on the Brink").  Yes more people can live on Earth (and 
>> currently do) but at the expense of the environment (including climate 
>> change and coral reefs).
>>
>> http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/3_times_sustainable
>>
>> You can make fun of it all you want but back when we only had 3.5 B 
>> people on Earth, there weren't the kinds of environmental disasters as we 
>> have now.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds 
>> discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt
>>
>> "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther King
>>
>> *************************************************************************
>> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
>> Professor of Marine Biology
>> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
>> Center for Marine Science
>> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>> 5600 Marvin Moss Ln
>> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
>> tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
>> http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
>> *******************************************************
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Greg Challenger [mailto:GChallenger at polarisappliedsciences.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:56 PM
>> To: Szmant, Alina; Peter Sale; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: RE: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Did you just say we have to get rid of half the world's people?  Which of 
>> the quotes in your email does that idea capture?  Perhaps this one.....
>>
>>     "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther King
>>
>> I know you weren't serious but it is one possible solution to making the 
>> environment more healthy, just not one in which at least half of us can 
>> agree.
>>
>> As the great ecologist George Carlin said......"Save the Earth?  The 
>> Earth will be fine....we are screwed".
>>
>>
>> Greg Challenger
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov 
>> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Szmant, 
>> Alina
>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 3:19 PM
>> To: Peter Sale; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Hello Peter:
>>
>> I read your essay in Reef Encounters.  All I will add is that if all we 
>> (whoever we is) are focused on is saving coral reefs, we are doomed to 
>> failure..  Coral reefs are just one of many ecosystems on Planet Earth 
>> that are in distress and being wiped out systematically due to the human 
>> cancer:  forests (rain and temperate, and all other kinds), wetlands, 
>> tundra, coastal plains, estuaries, and on and on.  We can't hope to save 
>> one without saving them all, and to do that in the long term, we have to 
>> somehow reduce human numbers to half of those inhabiting Earth today.  It 
>> may be too late already, but the longer we wait to even recognize the 
>> root of the problem and get moving to do something about it, the less 
>> likely that this will happen in time to save the organisms and ecosystems 
>> we know and value.
>>
>> Alina
>>
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds 
>> discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt
>>
>> "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther King
>>
>> *************************************************************************
>> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
>> Professor of Marine Biology
>> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee Center for Marine 
>> Science University of North Carolina Wilmington
>> 5600 Marvin Moss Ln
>> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
>> tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913 
>> http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
>> *******************************************************
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov 
>> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Peter Sale
>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:03 PM
>> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Hi,
>> I recently penned a comment on why we are, for the most part, failing in 
>> our efforts to repair and sustain coral reefs, despite the efforts of 
>> many dedicated and hard-working people.  It appeared in Reef Encounter, 
>> the on-line news journal of ISRS, and many readers of this list will have 
>> seen it already.  Thinking it might be worth wider dissemination, I've 
>> now put it up on my blog, with some pretty pictures attached.  You can 
>> access the blog at www.petersalebooks.com/?p=1708  and you can see the 
>> original in Reef Encounter which can be downloaded from the ISRS website 
>> at http://coralreefs.org/  Reef Encounter has lots of interesting content 
>> (perhaps even more interesting than my comment)!
>>
>> If you are a member of ISRS, you could also think of nominating someone 
>> to the ISRS Council, and if you are not a member, think about joining 
>> this international coral reef science community.
>>
>> Peter Sale
>>
>>
>> sale at uwindsor.ca                 @PeterSale3
>> www.uwindsor.ca/sale           www.petersalebooks.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
  David M. Lawrence        | Home:  (804) 559-9786
  6467 Hanna Drive         | Cell:  (804) 305-5234
  Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: dave at fuzzo.com
  USA                      | http:  http://fuzzo.com
------------------------------------------------------

"All drains lead to the ocean."  -- Gill, Finding Nemo

"We have met the enemy and he is us."  -- Pogo

"No trespassing
  4/17 of a haiku"  --  Richard Brautigan



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 19:00:00 +0000
From: "Greg Challenger" <GChallenger at polarisappliedsciences.com>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
To: "David M. Lawrence" <dave at fuzzo.com>,
"coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov" <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Message-ID:
<6e1f01aa826d43e283ed761d57bf339f at BY2PR07MB201.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would disagree that past events have not affected carrying capacity. 
We've been doing things that affect carrying capacity for quite some time. 
The one-time inheritance that helps create carrying capacity and includes 
things like topsoil and biodiversity that Erlich discusses in 1968 included 
buffalo, whales, prairie, wetlands and other things we have largely depleted 
long ago, did it not?   There are too many more examples to list. 
Carrying capacity is largely influenced the availability of substitute 
resources and very much by the current technological regime to utilize those 
resources in more effective and sustainable ways.  Despite losses of one 
time inheritances, the carrying capacity has still gone up due in part to 
many technological advances.  Advanced nations have higher carrying 
capacities than poorer nations.  I'm not selling technology as the panacea, 
but we are all "technologists".....are we admitting we can't solve the 
problem and we just have wait for h
alf of us to go away?  I'm not there yet.  I have been working on some great 
coral and large-scale wetland restoration projects.  I have seen some 
locations with much promise and recovery despite declines elsewhere.  I also 
lament losses, but there are apparently unavoidable losses on large scales 
regardless of humans as Gene points out.  This is no reason of course to 
reverse our own damage to the best of our ability.  I still think the glass 
is half full.  The loss of half of the glass is bad, but I'm not down yet.
Greg Challenger

-----Original Message-----
From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov 
[mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of David M. 
Lawrence
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:42 AM
To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs

Technology will never overcome the finite limits the biosphere can provide. 
As more and more of us swarm the planet, we'll keep "fishing down the food 
chain" until it gets very, very ugly.

All the past catastrophes Greg described did not threaten the carrying 
capacity of the planet.

Actually, some of what Paul Ehrlich predicted has come to pass. There were a 
number of social factors (such as the greater empowerment of
women) which, coupled with some technological factors (such as more 
widespread birth control), that have given us some breathing room as to when 
the more dire aspects of the future he envisioned will arrive.

That does not mean the more dire effects of the future he envisioned will 
not arrive.  As I know from personal experience, when we say "It's not that 
bad," we are often omitting the final word, which is "yet."

I also know that the "yets" can and do arrive.

So maybe it's not that bad ... yet.

Ehrlich's "Population Bomb" works like most other warnings.  If you see the 
railroad crossing signal and stop before the train arrives -- thus avoiding 
the collision -- it would be a mistake to conclude something was wrong with 
the warning itself.

Dave

On 10/22/2014 6:15 PM, Greg Challenger wrote:
> Energy units and land requirements to support an individual are dynamic 
> and have changed a lot over time with advancements.....no?   I know a well 
> known ecologist who calculated the earth population explosion back in 68 
> as well.    None of it has yet come to pass.....because advancements 
> intervened.  I hear what Francesca is saying....and I too am an optimist.
>
> Ps. When the world had 3,5 billion people it was the 60s I think.  Id say 
> we most certainly did have environmental catastrophes then. Go back even 
> farther....Hanford.... Love canal,  bikini atoll.....WWII.  If you think 
> the Iraq war or the BP spill were big, they don't hold a candle to WWII.
>
> Thanks for the provocative discussion
>
> Greg Challenger
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:50 PM, "Szmant, Alina" <szmanta at uncw.edu> wrote:
>>
>> The figure of how many humans (3 to 4 Billion) the Earth can support with 
>> a reasonable standard of living (at most 1/2 of the US standard), and 
>> still have some nature left around us,  is not mine.  It has been 
>> calculated by a number of well-known ecologists based on energy units, 
>> how much land it takes to support a person's needs (while still leaving 
>> land for wildlife), and other ways.  Richard Leakey quoted that number to 
>> me a few years back when I asked him the question.  I have seen it 
>> explained in a number of publications (check out that book I recommended 
>> awhile back "Life on the Brink").  Yes more people can live on Earth (and 
>> currently do) but at the expense of the environment (including climate 
>> change and coral reefs).
>>
>> http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/3_times_sustainable
>>
>> You can make fun of it all you want but back when we only had 3.5 B 
>> people on Earth, there weren't the kinds of environmental disasters as we 
>> have now.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
>> discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt
>>
>> "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther King
>>
>> *********************************************************************
>> ****
>> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
>> Professor of Marine Biology
>> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee Center for Marine
>> Science University of North Carolina Wilmington
>> 5600 Marvin Moss Ln
>> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
>> tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
>> http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
>> *******************************************************
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Greg Challenger [mailto:GChallenger at polarisappliedsciences.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:56 PM
>> To: Szmant, Alina; Peter Sale; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: RE: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Did you just say we have to get rid of half the world's people?  Which of 
>> the quotes in your email does that idea capture?  Perhaps this one.....
>>
>>     "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther
>> King
>>
>> I know you weren't serious but it is one possible solution to making the 
>> environment more healthy, just not one in which at least half of us can 
>> agree.
>>
>> As the great ecologist George Carlin said......"Save the Earth?  The 
>> Earth will be fine....we are screwed".
>>
>>
>> Greg Challenger
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Szmant,
>> Alina
>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 3:19 PM
>> To: Peter Sale; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Hello Peter:
>>
>> I read your essay in Reef Encounters.  All I will add is that if all we 
>> (whoever we is) are focused on is saving coral reefs, we are doomed to 
>> failure..  Coral reefs are just one of many ecosystems on Planet Earth 
>> that are in distress and being wiped out systematically due to the human 
>> cancer:  forests (rain and temperate, and all other kinds), wetlands, 
>> tundra, coastal plains, estuaries, and on and on.  We can't hope to save 
>> one without saving them all, and to do that in the long term, we have to 
>> somehow reduce human numbers to half of those inhabiting Earth today.  It 
>> may be too late already, but the longer we wait to even recognize the 
>> root of the problem and get moving to do something about it, the less 
>> likely that this will happen in time to save the organisms and ecosystems 
>> we know and value.
>>
>> Alina
>>
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds
>> discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt
>>
>> "The time is always right to do what is right"  Martin Luther King
>>
>> *********************************************************************
>> ****
>> Dr. Alina M. Szmant
>> Professor of Marine Biology
>> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee Center for Marine
>> Science University of North Carolina Wilmington
>> 5600 Marvin Moss Ln
>> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
>> tel:  910-962-2362  fax: 910-962-2410  cell: 910-200-3913
>> http://people.uncw.edu/szmanta
>> *******************************************************
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> [mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] On Behalf Of Peter
>> Sale
>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:03 PM
>> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> Subject: [Coral-List] Why we are failing to repair coral reefs
>>
>> Hi,
>> I recently penned a comment on why we are, for the most part, failing in 
>> our efforts to repair and sustain coral reefs, despite the efforts of 
>> many dedicated and hard-working people.  It appeared in Reef Encounter, 
>> the on-line news journal of ISRS, and many readers of this list will have 
>> seen it already.  Thinking it might be worth wider dissemination, I've 
>> now put it up on my blog, with some pretty pictures attached.  You can 
>> access the blog at www.petersalebooks.com/?p=1708  and you can see the 
>> original in Reef Encounter which can be downloaded from the ISRS website 
>> at http://coralreefs..org/  Reef Encounter has lots of interesting 
>> content (perhaps even more interesting than my comment)!
>>
>> If you are a member of ISRS, you could also think of nominating someone 
>> to the ISRS Council, and if you are not a member, think about joining 
>> this international coral reef science community.
>>
>> Peter Sale
>>
>>
>> sale at uwindsor.ca                 @PeterSale3
>> www.uwindsor.ca/sale           www.petersalebooks.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list

--
------------------------------------------------------
  David M. Lawrence        | Home:  (804) 559-9786
  6467 Hanna Drive         | Cell:  (804) 305-5234
  Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: dave at fuzzo.com
  USA                      | http:  http://fuzzo.com
------------------------------------------------------

"All drains lead to the ocean."  -- Gill, Finding Nemo

"We have met the enemy and he is us."  -- Pogo

"No trespassing
  4/17 of a haiku"  --  Richard Brautigan

_______________________________________________
Coral-List mailing list
Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list




More information about the Coral-List mailing list