[Coral-List] Giant barrel sponges taking over Florida's reefs!

Douglas Fenner douglasfennertassi at gmail.com
Thu Sep 10 22:59:57 EDT 2015


    Good points Dennis, Mike, Rob and Alex, thanks much.  I got a chuckle
or two as well.
    I'd amplify Dennis's good point about reefs don't grow as fast as
coral, coral doesn't cover the whole reef, these days it may not cover
much, depending on where you are.  Further, even if an atoll can keep up
with sea level rise, something has to move that sand and rubble up on top
of the island, it doesn't walk there on its own power.  A 6 foot high storm
surge plus waves going through your house can be pretty inconvenient, I
would be willing to bet.  Even deadly.  An atoll could become uninhabitable
or not worth the fight to try to survive on, yet still be above sea level
most of the time.  Not that I have personal experience in this, you
understand.
Cheers,  Doug

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
wrote:

> I agree with Mike which is why I discuss the question, "What is a reef?"
> only with close friends.
>
> Dennis
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Risk, Michael <riskmj at mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>    Hi Doug.
>>
>>    I have never had a real problem with the old "geological" definition
>> of a
>>    reef as a "biologically-constructed wave-resistant structure." This
>> would
>>    mean that, for example, there are no true deep-water coral reefs, nor
>> are
>>    there likely to be reefs constructed by modern sponges. Of course, we
>> have
>>    had  ancient  reefs  made  by  ancient  sponges  with  hard  skeletons
>>    (stromatoporoids), as well as brachiopods and huge oysters, and the
>> list
>>    goes on.
>>
>>    Where  I  might  take  issue  with you is your broad usage of the term
>>    "ecologist.† I consider that an ecologist is one who studies the
>> ecosystem.
>>    There are many universities today at which one can obtain a PhD in
>> "ecology"
>>    without ever having had a course in earth sciences or, indeed, physics
>> or
>>    chemistry. I knew the biology department at my old university was in
>> trouble
>>    when  they  advertised  for  an "ecologist† and the title of the
>> first
>>    candidate's job seminar was “The ecology of T4 phage in the hind gut
>> of the
>>    rat."
>>
>>    I think you were referring to people I would call "biologists." Fine
>> people
>>    all, to be sure, but a real ecologist has a grasp on more things than
>> just
>>    biology.
>>
>>    Your separation of processes into biological and geological on the
>> basis of
>>    time is perhaps not a bad one, but I would point out that dead reefs
>> already
>>    have been shown to lose topographical complexity. It is that mixture of
>>    habitats  that  allows  reefs  to support those diverse and entrancing
>>    communities that so fascinate us. It only takes a decade for
>> substantive
>>    change to occur.
>>
>>    Mike
>>
>>    On Sep 4, 2015, at 4:46 PM, Douglas Fenner <[1]
>> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
>>
>>    wrote:
>>
>>      Vassil,
>>         Good point.  The geological reef structure was built by primarily
>> by
>>      corals, or at least the corals are important as baffling to hold it
>>      together.  Algae often are very important contributors and can
>> contribute
>>      more calcium than corals.  They are coral reefs in the same sense as
>> a
>>      similar structure lifted 20 feet out of the water 100,000 years ago
>> is a
>>      coral reef.  But an uplifted reef above the water does not have a
>> living
>>      coral reef ecosystem on the surface.  The same is true of reefs that
>> are
>>      now dominated by algae, whether the algae is macroalgae (by which I
>> mean
>>      frondose or fleshy algae) or turf (by which I mean filamentous
>> algae) or
>>      coralline algae or mixtures or soft corals or other things.
>>          Sometimes people talk or write about how reefs may die in coming
>>      decades.  The geological structures won't die, though they have many
>>      living
>>      things in holes in the structure, I would think.  I don't think the
>>      geological structures are going to disappear in a few decades,
>> either.  I
>>      presume that reefs in Florida that are now sponge-dominated instead
>> of
>>      being coral-dominated are not accumulating more calcium deposits,
>> likely
>>      they are loosing more than gaining, bioerosion likely is greater than
>>      calcification (unless there are algae calcifying faster than the
>>      bioerosion).  But I'm not as worried about the geological structure
>> as the
>>      ecosystem, in the relatively short term (decades).
>>           I have sympathy for Mike Risk's view of the need for something
>>      besides just ecologists, studying reefs.  I tend to think that with
>> the
>>      vast expansion of knowledge, individuals have to specialize.  I read
>>      somewhere that about 1800 papers on coral reefs are being published
>> each
>>      year now and the rate is increasing fast.  No one can keep up with
>> all of
>>      it, and time spent outside of your specialty means less time to gain
>> the
>>      knowledge to be a competitive expert in your specialty.  So trying
>> to be a
>>      generalist is pretty self-defeating.  The answer is to have teams of
>>      people
>>      with different specialties, because as Mike rightly points out, coral
>>      reefs
>>      are very complex structures with many different things that require
>>      different specialists to study, and many reef aspects need people in
>>      several different specialists to study.  We already need
>> statisticians on
>>      our teams.  I agree ecologists probably need to work with geologists
>> in
>>      their teams more often.  I think ecologists need to consult with
>>      taxonomists about identifications of their favorite organisms more
>> often,
>>      and geneticists need taxonomists on their teams.
>>           But I also think that the coral reef crisis is an ecological
>> crisis,
>>      not really a geological crisis.  Oh, it will be in a few thousand
>> years if
>>      we keep this up.  But we are loosing coral reef ecosystems even if we
>>      aren't loosing geological structures yet.  Both provide benefits for
>>      humans.  But the scientific community is pretty nimble at shifting
>> towards
>>      the exciting parts of science, and a lot of people see the coral reef
>>      crisis as important and so makes for exciting science.  Easier to get
>>      funding on things important to society, so some of us shift to work
>> on
>>      those things.  Not a bad thing.
>>           But I think you're right, Vassil, to be accurate, in some
>> places,
>>      what was a coral reef ecosystem is now a sponge-algal ecosystem on
>> top of
>>      a
>>      dead coral reef.  Or something like that, I'm not sure what the best
>> name
>>      is.  Likely people will continue to call them "coral reefs" because
>> that
>>      is
>>      a catchy name that we are all familiar with.  There is one on the
>> south
>>      side of Molokai Island in Hawaii which had a wide reef flat, a reef
>> made
>>      of
>>      calcium carbonate.  The geological structure of carbonate is still
>> there,
>>      but the reef flat is almost completely covered with mud that has
>> eroded
>>      off
>>      of agricultural fields on land.  A few tiny corals poke up through
>> the
>>      mud.  I saw similar along the east side of Lanai Island in Hawaii a
>> couple
>>      decades ago.  What should we call that?  Certainly that reef flat
>> does not
>>      have a coral reef ecosystem.  Mud ecosystem on top of a dead coral
>> reef is
>>      more like it.
>>         In truth, many of the ecosystems we call coral reef ecosystems
>> are not
>>      actually dominated by corals.  Corals are an important component,
>> but not
>>      dominant.  True even on many reefs with very little human
>> influence.  Of
>>      course humans have caused massive losses of corals on many or most
>> of the
>>      world's reefs.  Of course that's bad.
>>         By the way, I LIKE sponges!  Caribbean sponges are large,
>> colorful, and
>>      their biology is very different and interesting.  Where I'm at in the
>>      Pacific, sponges are small, uncommon, and cryptic.  Nothing like the
>>      glorious sponges of the Caribbean.  They are not completely
>> incompatible
>>      with corals.  Cozumel used to have good coral on top of the reefs,
>> and
>>      fabulous sponge communities on overhangs.  Spectacular.  Wonderful
>> part of
>>      the ecosystem.
>>          Cheers,  Doug
>>      On   Wed,   Sep   2,   2015   at   12:19   AM,   Vassil   Zlatarski
>>      <[2]vzlatarski at gmail.com>
>>      wrote:
>>
>>      Well, Joseph, in such case the usage of “coral reefs† should be
>> precised,
>>      for example, "coral-limestone reefs" or “dead-coral reefs† or
>>      “not-living-coral reefs† or in other appropriate way.
>>      Best,
>>      Vassil
>>      Vassil Zlatarski
>>      D.Sc. (Biology), Ph.D. (Geology)
>>      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>      From: Pawlik, Joseph <[3]pawlikj at uncw.edu>
>>      Date: Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:31 AM
>>      Subject: RE: [Coral-List] Giant barrel sponges taking over Florida's
>>      reefs!
>>      To: Vassil Zlatarski <[4]vzlatarski at gmail.com>
>>      Agreed, Vassil,
>>      But the reef was built by coral (it's limestone) -- they just aren't
>>      building it anymore!
>>      **************************************************************
>>      Joseph R. Pawlik, Professor
>>      Department of Biology and Marine Biology
>>      UNCW Center for Marine Science
>>      5600 Marvin K Moss Lane
>>      Wilmington, NC  28409   USA
>>      [5]pawlikj at uncw.edu; Office:(910)962-2377; Cell:(910)232-3579
>>      Website: [6]http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/index.html<
>>      [7]https://mail.uncw.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>      PDFs: [8]http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/pubs2.html<
>>      [9]https://mail.uncw.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>      **************************************************************
>>      ________________________________
>>      From: Vassil Zlatarski [[10]vzlatarski at gmail.com]
>>      Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 4:25 AM
>>      To: Coral-List Subscribers; Pawlik, Joseph
>>      Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Giant barrel sponges taking over Florida's
>>      reefs!
>>      Dear Coral-Listers,
>>      Prof. Pawlik offered interesting paper “Population dynamics of
>> giant
>>      barrel
>>      sponges on Florida coral reefs† and video adding to the growing
>> evidence
>>      that reef-building corals are declining and sponges are becoming the
>>      dominant inhabitants of modern Caribbean benthic communities.  For
>> the
>>      fortunate researchers of coral reefs 4-5 decades ago is strange the
>> usage
>>      of “coral reefs† for the documented now-existing situation.  Is
>> it not in
>>      reality a case of “sponge gardens†?
>>      Cheers,
>>      Vassil
>>      Vassil N. Zlatarski
>>      D.Sc. (Biology), Ph.D. (Geology)
>>      On    Tue,    Sep   1,   2015   at   10:45   AM,   Pawlik,   Joseph
>>      <[11]pawlikj at uncw.edu<mailto:
>>      [12]pawlikj at uncw.edu>> wrote:
>>      Greetings, Colleagues,
>>      In a 12-year study just published in the Journal of Experimental
>> Marine
>>      Biology and Ecology, we report that populations of giant barrel
>> sponges
>>      have increased by 122% since 2000 on Conch Reef, off the coast of Key
>>      Largo,  Florida. This adds to the growing evidence that sponges are
>>      becoming
>>      the dominant inhabitants of modern Caribbean reefs.  The article can
>> be
>>      downloaded for free:
>>      [13]http://authors.elsevier.com/a/1RcjD51aUK0hE
>>
>>      Giant barrel sponges (Xestospongia muta) are found throughout the
>>      Caribbean, and commonly grow to the size of an oil drum or larger.
>> Called
>>      the "redwoods of the reef," these sponges can live to be hundreds,
>> even
>>      thousands of years old, based on earlier growth studies conducted by
>> the
>>      same first author, Dr. Steven McMurray.
>>      A video tour of the plots on Conch Reef can be seen here:
>>      https://youtu.be/qdjhm7ojGJk
>>      You can see how large these sponges get in this video from the
>> Bahamas:
>>      https://youtu.be/8WaWVuGE-LM
>>      Not only are the numbers of giant barrel sponges increasing, so is
>> their
>>      volume, with a 39% increase since 2000. On average, each square
>> meter of
>>      Conch Reef now has about 2 liters of barrel sponge tissue on its
>> surface,
>>      more than any other organism on the reef.  And the giant barrel
>> sponge is
>>      only one of many species of sponges that populate Caribbean coral
>> reefs.
>>      Much of the increase in the numbers of giant barrel sponges was due
>> to
>>      recruitment - the successful establishment of baby sponges. On some
>> plots,
>>      the increase in the smallest-sized barrel sponges was over 600% for
>> the
>>      period 2000-2012. And while the survival of larger barrel sponges was
>>      stable for the first half of this period, it increased during the
>> second
>>      half, perhaps because of the absence of hurricanes over that time
>> period.
>>      When hurricanes pass over reefs, large sponges can be damaged and
>>      dislodged, often resulting in mortality.
>>      Regards,
>>      **************************************************************
>>      Joseph R. Pawlik, Professor,
>>      Dept. of Biology and Marine Biology
>>      UNCW Center for Marine Science
>>      5600 Marvin K Moss Lane
>>      Wilmington, NC  28409
>>      Office:(910)962-2377<tel:%28910%29962-2377>; Cell:(910)232-3579
>>      <tel:%28910%29232-3579>
>>      Website: http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/index.html
>>      PDFs: http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/pubs2.html
>>      Video Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/skndiver011
>>      **************************************************************
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Coral-List mailing list
>>      Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> >
>>      http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Coral-List mailing list
>>      Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>      http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>
>>      --
>>      Douglas Fenner
>>      Contractor with Ocean Associates, Inc.
>>      PO Box 7390
>>      Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
>>      phone 1 684 622-7084
>>      Join the International Society for Reef Studies.  Membership
>> includes a
>>      subscription to the journal Coral Reefs, there are discounts for pdf
>>      subscriptions and developing countries.  [14]www.fit.edu/isrs/
>>      "Belief in climate change is optional, participation is not."- Jim
>> Beever.
>>       "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own
>> facts."-
>>      Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
>>      Energy policy: push renewables to spur carbon pricing.  (the world
>>      subsidizes fossil fuels a half Trillion dollars a year!)
>>      [15]
>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7567/full/nature14876.html?
>>
>>  WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150904&spMailingID=49465812&spUserID=MjA1NTA3MjA0OQS2&sp
>>      JobID=760401953&spReportId=NzYwNDAxOTUzS0
>>      Historically unprecedented global glacier decline in the early 21st
>>      century...
>>
>> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/igsoc/jog/pre-prints/content-ings_jo
>>      g_15j017
>>      Hottest July on record keeps 2015 on track to crush 2014 for hottest
>> year.
>>
>> http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/08/14/3691940/hottest-july-hottest-y
>>      ear-record/
>>      website:  http://independent.academia.edu/DouglasFenner
>>      blog: http://ocean.si.edu/blog/reefs-american-samoa-story-hope
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Coral-List mailing list
>>      Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>      http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>
>>    Risk, Michael
>>    [16]riskmj at mcmaster.ca
>>
>> References
>>
>>    1. mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com
>>    2. mailto:vzlatarski at gmail.com
>>    3. mailto:pawlikj at uncw.edu
>>    4. mailto:vzlatarski at gmail.com
>>    5. mailto:pawlikj at uncw.edu
>>    6. http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/index.html
>>    7. https://mail.uncw.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx
>>    8. http://people.uncw.edu/pawlikj/pubs2.html
>>    9. https://mail.uncw.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx
>>   10. mailto:vzlatarski at gmail.com
>>   11. mailto:pawlikj at uncw.edu
>>   12. mailto:pawlikj at uncw.edu
>>   13. http://authors.elsevier.com/a/1RcjD51aUK0hE
>>   14. http://www.fit.edu/isrs/
>>   15.
>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7567/full/nature14876..html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150904&spMailingID=49465812&spUserID=MjA1NTA3MjA0OQS2&spJobID=760401953&spReportId=NzYwNDAxOTUzS0
>>   16. mailto:riskmj at mcmaster.ca
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Coral-List mailing list
>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>> http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard
> Chair, Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 775-8346
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
>



-- 
Douglas Fenner
Contractor with Ocean Associates, Inc.
PO Box 7390
Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA

phone 1 684 622-7084

Join the International Society for Reef Studies.  Membership includes a
subscription to the journal Coral Reefs, there are discounts for pdf
subscriptions and developing countries.  www.fit.edu/isrs/

"Belief in climate change is optional, participation is not."- Jim Beever.
  "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts."-
Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Energy policy: push renewables to spur carbon pricing.  (the world
subsidizes fossil fuels a half Trillion dollars a year!)

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7567/full/nature14876.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150904&spMailingID=49465812&spUserID=MjA1NTA3MjA0OQS2&spJobID=760401953&spReportId=NzYwNDAxOTUzS0

5 trillion tons of ice lost since 2002.  (that's trillion with a "T".
Check the steady loss in the graphs.)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2015/09/03/ice_loss_greenland_and_antarctica_lost_5_trillion_tons_since_1992.html

Historically unprecedented global glacier decline in the early 21st century..

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/igsoc/jog/pre-prints/content-ings_jog_15j017



website:  http://independent.academia.edu/DouglasFenner

blog: http://ocean.si.edu/blog/reefs-american-samoa-story-hope


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