[Coral-List] Cruise ships

Sun Dec 22 20:44:52 UTC 2019

Ellen,
    Thanks very much for this, this is good news and we don't get enough of
that these days.
    I may agree with your point about non-point pollution coming from land
being a greater problem than that coming from cruise ships.  After all,
I've frequently argued that we must address the greatest threats to reefs
or we will lose them, and argued that sunscreens are way down near the
bottom of the list of threats to the world's reefs.  Others have argued
that we need to attack all threats.  If we applied my argument to
land-based sources of pollution, it seems to me that climate change caused
mass bleaching and disease outbreaks are likely at least as great if not
greater than land-based sources of pollution.  And we (the rich developed
countries, led by the US and Australia) are doing way way too little about
that.  But I really wouldn't want land-based sources of pollution
neglected, everyone agrees it is a major threat to reefs and MUST be
addressed.  But the article seemed to say that Carnival's continued trash
dumping practices are egregious, and the judge was getting fed up with
their not changing their practices, but fines that seem large to us are
minute in the face of their profits, so why would they change?  (I guess
the converse argument could be made, changing trash dumping practices would
cost them so little, they could change it without hurting their bottom
line.  The important comparison on the fines is probably not the comparison
to their total profits, but to how much it would cost them to adopt better
(and legal) trash disposal practices.  Which begs the question, why don't
they change?  Solution is to make the fines clearly larger than the cost of
proper waste disposal, otherwise they just see it as a cost of doing
business.  Of course if consumers boycotted companies that dump trash, they
would start to listen.)
     The silicon antifoulant sounds great.  I wonder if it is more
expensive, but if not then not only could cruise ships switch to it, but
also the rest of shipping.  I bet cruise ships are a small part of shipping
as a whole.
      I'm reminded of another problem.  Ships (virtually all large ships,
not just cruise ships) use "bunker oil" to fuel them, because it is cheaper
than low-sulfur diesel.  Anybody ever seen thick black smoke coming from a
ship?  Bunker oil is the dregs of the refining process, what's left over
with all the gunk in it.  Costs money to take the sulfur out.  The
International Maritime Organization, I read, was going to ban the
high-sulfur, polluting, bunker oil, but the shipping industry pleaded to
have time to switch, and to have it phased in.  So they did that.  But
since it is cheaper, very few switched.  Now the final deadline (Jan 1,
2020) is a few weeks away, and if they all switch at once, the refineries
aren't set up to instantly produce the additional clean diesel.  So there
could be a clean diesel shortage and a price hike.  Likely they will begin
to switch, but it will take a long time, and enforcement is weakened, it is
left to the "flag states" about 55% of the world fleet fly with "flags of
convenience" which are small countries (notably Panama, Liberia, Marshall
Is. and Bahamas, see Wikipedia article link below) that have weak
regulations and make money because most shippers save money by registering
with them and avoiding regulations.  Notice in the article linked below, in
the map of fine particulate air pollution, the Caribbean and US east coast
have some of the highest in the world.  Lots of shipping, including cruise
ships.
      Anyhow, thanks for this.    Cheers,  Doug

https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-last-the-shipping-industry-begins-cleaning-up-its-dirty-fuels

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 4:50 AM Ellen Prager <pragere at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Doug
>
> Celebrity’s small expedition ships in the Galapagos, use a silicon based
> coating for the hull to avoid the toxins of other anti-foulants.
> So there is technology out there to avoid that impact.
>
> I would not say the biggest cruise lines all dump illegally……Carnival has
> been caught several times, but the others have tried to clean up their act.
> They’re not perfect, but they are doing better.
>
> I have worked with Celebrity to try to minimize their impacts in the
> Galapagos - and give them and Royal Caribbean very strong independent
> advice (unpaid and not always what they want to hear) on other topics.
>
> Non-point source pollution coming off the land is a much larger problem
> than what comes from the majority of cruise ships.
>
> If the cruise lines follow the policies of CLIA (Cruise Line International
> Association), which most do - their wastewater and ballast water impacts
> are reduced.
>
> All that said, another big issue is simply too many people visiting and
> impacting small islands or visitor sites…..I don’t see how this is
> sustainable over time.
>
> Ellen
>
> Dr. Ellen Prager
> Earth2Ocean, Inc
> @elprager
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 2019, at 3:27 AM, Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >      I'd be willing to bet that cruise ships use anti-foulants to keep
> > their ship hulls from growing algae, barnacles, etc which produce drag
> and
> > increase fuel costs.  Most ships (maybe virtually all) use anti-foulants.
> > They have to be toxic to the organisms that like to attach to hard
> > surfaces, and as the ship moves through the water, I'd bet that some of
> it
> > comes off.  Are there any anti-foulants that are reef-friendly?  Maybe
> > someone knows, I don't.  I bet the area of the hull of one of these ships
> > is greater than the area of an awful lot of humans with sunscreens on
> them.
> >      Some of the biggest cruise ship lines do illegal dumping and keep
> > getting caught, leading judges to get a bit irritated
> >
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2019/06/11/carnival-cruise-to-pay-20-million-after-admitting-to-dumping-plastic-waste-in-the-bahamas/#33d1d8f23a6f
> >  Ships are famous for introducing species by carrying them in their
> > ballast water.
> >       Cheers,  Doug
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:45 AM Douglas Fenner <
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>       I used to go to Cozumel frequently, back in the day long ago when
> >> one or sometimes two cruise ships were in port, but many days none.
> Sounds
> >> like those days are long gone.  My feeling then was that anyone who
> wants
> >> to see the reef has picked the wrong mode if they go on a cruise ship.
> You
> >> get one day in port to try to see the island and dive or snorkel reefs.
> >> Most passengers just walk around town and buy stuff.  The benefit to the
> >> local economy is very small compared to people who come and stay on the
> >> island to do diving and/or snorkeling, as well as look around town.  Of
> >> course, all-inclusive resorts at many Caribbean destinations are usually
> >> owned by North American corporations, their patrons pay the owners
> >> directly, and little of the money ever gets to the island where the
> resort
> >> is.  Some of the resorts are fenced off, far from towns, and the people
> >> just lie on the sand and get sunburned, and eat, separated from the
> local
> >> people who aren't rich like them.  I always preferred to stay at the
> small,
> >> locally owned places, cheaper, get to know the people that own and run
> >> them, spend time on the island walking around in the evenings learning a
> >> bit about the culture and enjoying (I still do that, but in the
> Pacific).
> >> All of the money I spent other than airfare went into the local economy
> and
> >> I made some great friends.  One friend in Cozumel said that the three
> most
> >> obvious groups of cruise ship passengers were newly weds, overweight
> >> people, and retirees.  And then there is the fact that large ships like
> >> that burn about 2 gallons of fuel per foot traveled.  Even with a huge
> >> number of passengers and crew, it is still worse mileage than you get
> in a
> >> car, and it is totally recreational and optional, with big attractions
> like
> >> eating that can be done without being on a cruise ship.  But obviously
> very
> >> popular.  Almost all money spent by passengers go to the cruise ship
> >> company, which in all cases are surely owned by corporations or wealthy
> >> families in developed countries.  Cozumel had loads of shops selling all
> >> sorts of stuff.
> >>     Back then, Cozumel was the third-largest foreign exchange earner for
> >> Mexico, following Acapulco and Cancun.  But I'm sure it was the divers
> who
> >> were spending money that went into the economies of Cozumel and Mexico
> much
> >> more than cruise ships.  Divers stay in hotels, pay for diving and pay
> for
> >> food, and stay much longer.  All of which cruise ship passengers did not
> >> do.  Cruise ships in Grand Cayman had long ago pretty well pulverized a
> >> designated anchoring area, and there is a published account of the
> >> destruction done by the anchor chain of one that anchored on the south
> side
> >> on top of reefs.  Changing winds blew the ship back and forth, dragging
> the
> >> chain with it's 100 pound links, cutting off giant massive corals at the
> >> base, flattening an area the size of a football field.  To my knowledge
> >> there were never any fines imposed.  So if they anchor with their
> multi-ton
> >> anchors, that's another thing to consider.
> >>     So my experience, old as it is, fits with what Dennis is saying, I
> >> think you are on the right track.
> >>     One minor point, surely an overweight person weighs much more than
> >> 100 pounds, unless they are very young or very short or anorexic.
> >>     Cheers,  Doug
> >>
> >> Allen WH  (1992)  Increased dangers to Caribbean marine ecosystems.
> >> Bioscience, 42: 330-335
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:35 AM Steve Mussman via Coral-List <
> >> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Gene,
> >>>
> >>> The problem is that one side of the double edged sword has been ignored
> >>> for far too long!
> >>>
> >>> This citation and concluding statement (below) is from a (somewhat
> dated)
> >>> comprehensive study on the issue:
> >>>
> >>> Hilaire, Adrian, "An analysis of cruise tourism in the Caribbean and
> its
> >>> impact on regional destination ports" (2007). World Maritime University
> >>> Dissertations. 349.
> >>> http://commons.wmu.se/all_dissertations/349
> >>>
> >>> “An analysis of cruise tourism in the Caribbean and its impact on
> >>> regional destination ports
> >>> In this world of wars, genocides, and increasing acts of terror the
> >>> serenity of the Caribbean will always make the region a much sought
> after
> >>> destination. The key stakeholders in the industry, namely cruise
> operators
> >>> and destination ports, have a responsibility to develop in the
> Caribbean
> >>> cruise industry in a sustainable manner to facilitate the continuance
> of
> >>> the industry as well as its long term profitability. Any action
> contrary to
> >>> this will ultimately result in cruise operators and destination ports
> >>> killing the goose that lay the golden egg”.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, there are economic benefits, but stakeholders are obviously not
> >>> doing enough to promote sustainability. Seems we have learned nothing
> from
> >>> the moral of Aesop’s fable as we continue to inflict harm on the goose
> that
> >>> laid the golden eggs; aka the region’s coral reefs.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>>> On Dec 11, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Eugene Shinn via Coral-List <
> >>> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter and Steve, I share your concern regarding cruise ships. They are
> >>> like a double edge sword. Last month I was on a 10-day family trip to
> the
> >>> Windward Islands. We stopped at 6 different Islands all of which have
> large
> >>> facilities for giant cruise ships. There were as many at 3 such ships
> at
> >>> one stop and ours was not the largest. We only had about 3,000 people
> in
> >>> addition to another 800 crew. Eating and drinking along with shopping
> and
> >>> shore trips to beaches and coal reefs appeared to be the most common
> >>> activity. Everyone was friendly and courteous and I saw no garbage,
> sewage
> >>> or other trash going overboard such as was common in the past. What
> struck
> >>> me was the number of overweight people (some >100 lbs.) at the three
> >>> swimming pools slathering on sunscreens. The pools were salt water
> that I
> >>> assume is recirculated to the ocean. Thanks to Steven Miller a computer
> >>> search revealed 28 million people took cruises in 2018. Nevertheless
> it is
> >>> also obvious this industry provides incredible numbers of jobs
> including
> >>> the manufacture of the multitudes of components that go into these
> giant
> >>> ships not to mention food liquor and toilet paper. The industry is
> clearly
> >>> a boon to our economy including the islands and ports they visit. A
> list of
> >>> their economic benefits would likely fill several books. That’s the
> double
> >>> edge sword. Gene
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> No Rocks, No Water, No Ecosystem (EAS)
> >>>> ------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------
> >>>> E. A. Shinn, Courtesy Professor
> >>>> University of South Florida
> >>>> College of Marine Science Room 221A
> >>>> 140 Seventh Avenue South
> >>>> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> >>>> <eugeneshinn at mail.usf.edu>
> >>>> Tel 727 553-1158
> >>>> ---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Coral-List mailing list
> >>>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>>> https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Coral-List mailing list
> >>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> >>> https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Douglas Fenner
> >> Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor
> >> NOAA Fisheries Service
> >> Pacific Islands Regional Office
> >> Honolulu
> >> and:
> >> Consultant
> >> PO Box 7390
> >> Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
> >>
> >> Even 50-year old climate models correctly predicted global warmng
> >>
> >>
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/even-50-year-old-climate-models-correctly-predicted-global-warming?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276
> >>
> >> Greenhouse gas emissions to set new record this year, but rate of growth
> >> shrinks
> >>
> >>
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/greenhouse-gas-emissions-year-set-new-record-rate-growth-shrinks?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276
> >>
> >> "Global warming is manifestly the foremost current threat to coral
> reefs,
> >> and must be addressed by the global community if reefs as we know them
> will
> >> have any chance to persist."  Williams et al, 2019, Frontiers in Marine
> >> Science
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Douglas Fenner
> > Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor
> > NOAA Fisheries Service
> > Pacific Islands Regional Office
> > Honolulu
> > and:
> > Consultant
> > PO Box 7390
> > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
> >
> > Even 50-year old climate models correctly predicted global warmng
> >
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/even-50-year-old-climate-models-correctly-predicted-global-warming?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276
> >
> > Greenhouse gas emissions to set new record this year, but rate of growth
> > shrinks
> >
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/greenhouse-gas-emissions-year-set-new-record-rate-growth-shrinks?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276
> >
> > "Global warming is manifestly the foremost current threat to coral reefs,
> > and must be addressed by the global community if reefs as we know them
> will
> > have any chance to persist."  Williams et al, 2019, Frontiers in Marine
> > Science
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>
>

-- 
Douglas Fenner
Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor
NOAA Fisheries Service
Pacific Islands Regional Office
Honolulu
and:
Consultant
PO Box 7390
Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA

Even 50-year old climate models correctly predicted global warmng
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/even-50-year-old-climate-models-correctly-predicted-global-warming?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276

Greenhouse gas emissions to set new record this year, but rate of growth
shrinks
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/12/greenhouse-gas-emissions-year-set-new-record-rate-growth-shrinks?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2019-12-06&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=3113276

"Global warming is manifestly the foremost current threat to coral reefs,
and must be addressed by the global community if reefs as we know them will
have any chance to persist."  Williams et al, 2019, Frontiers in Marine
Science