[Coral-List] cooperation and the tragedy of the commons

Tue Jul 23 07:35:15 UTC 2019

Well said!  I completely agree.  I sometimes think that people think that
the science dictates management actions, without any overt discussion of
the social aspects and problems.  There are often fundamental questions of
what the societal goals are, the values, and who gets what and what is or
isn't fair and who benefits and who doesn't and so on.  In my opinion,
those discussions are super important, and to have them transparent and
open.
Cheers,  Doug

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:31 AM Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
wrote:

> Doug:
>
> I believe you are correct. In any event, I totally agree with your
> perspectives. The sole objective in my posts was to provide real historical
> perspective on a concept that has become central to our conservation core,
> but is too often bent to fit our individual ideas. I do not sense any
> dishonesty in this, but if we are going to objectively apply the principles
> as concerned conservationists, then we need to make sure that our
> understanding of historical perspective are accurate when we build an
> argument on using the "commons".
>
> The "commons" essays are clearly important and classic guides for how we
> might best balance individual and common needs. However, they is also based
> on interesting philosophical essays that have a darker side about who
> should get into the "commons club" in the first place. In this vein, I
> would suggest that discussions of who gets to use the commons are as
> important as those that opine on how to best manage them - something that
> we, as scientists, too often subordinate to ecologically grounded
> discussions of resource management.
>
> I occasionally go back to reread the various iterations (it has been
> updated in *Science* on a decadal scale) to make sure I have not let my
> personal perspectives change my recollections of what has been somewhat of
> a compass for me.
>
> By way of perspective, I have spent a lot of time surrounded by liberal
> arts and humanities colleagues. While intellectually above me. too many
> "interpret" texts in ways that seem to fit their narrative as much as
> objectively analyze the validity of a particular argument. Some perhaps
> remember earlier discussions on the listserve about how we are losing the
> old scientific literature in our zeal to cite the latest papers. The end
> result is an intellectual failing to truely understand the evolution of a
> critical concept. I would hate our discussions of a classic set of essays
> devolve into something akin to a humanistic argument over what is "good
> art".
>
> Best,
>
> Dennis
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:03 PM Douglas Fenner <
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You are probably not miss-remembering, but I know little about
>> economics.  However, in recent times economic valuations often include
>> "non-use" values, which for reefs can sometimes be more than the use
>> values.  People value just knowing some things exist, even if they are
>> unlikely to make use of it.  If the survey covers enough people, then the
>> non-use value can be quite large even if the amount per person is quite
>> small.  Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.
>> Cheers,  Doug
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 9:30 AM Dennis Hubbard <
>> dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> As I remember this element of reasoning wrt the "commons", economists
>>> basically argue that nothing has "value" until someone uses it. Am I
>>> mis-remembering?
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:36 PM Ehsan KAYAL via Coral-List <
>>> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Douglas and other colleagues. Long ago, the myth of the tragedy of
>>>> the
>>>> commons has been debunked by economists and other scholars (see here for
>>>> instance: https://economicquestions.org/tragedy/). I believe it is
>>>> time we
>>>> biologist also accept the fallacy of such theory.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> E
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>> Ehsan Kayal, PhD
>>>> Station Biologique de Roscoff
>>>> FR 2424 CNRS UPMC
>>>> Place Georges Teissier
>>>> CS 90074
>>>> 29688 Roscoff Cedex
>>>> tel: (+33)298295646
>>>> ehsan.kayal at sb-roscoff.fr
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> This conversation is most likely monitored by the government
>>>> “We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used
>>>> when we
>>>> created them.” Albert Einstein
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 16:05, Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
>>>> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The cure to the tragedy of the commons?  Cooperation
>>>> > (In reef fisheries)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/the-cure-to-the-tragedy-of-the-commons-cooperation/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Douglas Fenner
>>>> > Ocean Associates, Inc. Contractor
>>>> > NOAA Fisheries Service
>>>> > Pacific Islands Regional Office
>>>> > Honolulu
>>>> > and:
>>>> > Consultant
>>>> > PO Box 7390
>>>> > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
>>>> >
>>>> > A call to climate action  (Science editorial)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/364/6443/807?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2019-05-30&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=2840296
>>>> >
>>>> > New book "The Uninhabitable Earth"  First sentence: "It is much, much
>>>> worse
>>>> > than you think."
>>>> > Read first (short) chapter open access:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/read-a-chapter-from-the-uninhabitable-earth-a-dire-warning-on-climate-change
>>>> >
>>>> > Want a Green New Deal?  Here's a better one.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/want-a-green-new-deal-heres-a-better-one/2019/02/24/2d7e491c-36d2-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html?utm_term=.a3fc8337cbf8
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Coral-List mailing list
>>>> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>>> > https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Coral-List mailing list
>>>> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
>>>> https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dennis Hubbard
>>> Chair, Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
>>> (440) 775-8346
>>>
>>> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>>>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Douglas Fenner
>> Ocean Associates, Inc. Contractor
>> NOAA Fisheries Service
>> Pacific Islands Regional Office
>> Honolulu
>> and:
>> Consultant
>> PO Box 7390
>> Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA
>>
>> A call to climate action  (Science editorial)
>>
>> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/364/6443/807?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2019-05-30&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=2840296
>>
>> New book "The Uninhabitable Earth"  First sentence: "It is much, much
>> worse than you think."
>> Read first (short) chapter open access:
>> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/read-a-chapter-from-the-uninhabitable-earth-a-dire-warning-on-climate-change
>>
>> Want a Green New Deal?  Here's a better one.
>>
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/want-a-green-new-deal-heres-a-better-one/2019/02/24/2d7e491c-36d2-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html?utm_term=.a3fc8337cbf8
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard
> Chair, Dept of Geology-Oberlin College Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 775-8346
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
>

-- 
Douglas Fenner
Ocean Associates, Inc. Contractor
NOAA Fisheries Service
Pacific Islands Regional Office
Honolulu
and:
Consultant
PO Box 7390
Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799  USA

A call to climate action  (Science editorial)
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/364/6443/807?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2019-05-30&et_rid=17045989&et_cid=2840296

New book "The Uninhabitable Earth"  First sentence: "It is much, much worse
than you think."
Read first (short) chapter open access:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/read-a-chapter-from-the-uninhabitable-earth-a-dire-warning-on-climate-change

Want a Green New Deal?  Here's a better one.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/want-a-green-new-deal-heres-a-better-one/2019/02/24/2d7e491c-36d2-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html?utm_term=.a3fc8337cbf8