[Coral-List] FW: On a positive note But actually...

Sun Jun 30 04:47:42 UTC 2019

Dear listers. I am deeply concerned by the statement referred to below
about poor people. This kind of misconception (thank you Chris for your
comments below) is problematic for our collective missions to better
understand and protect coral reefs. Classism, racism, sexism, and straight
up incorrect assertions will be exactly the excuse some will need to
discredit our community. I work with people who I suppose would meet the
definition of ‘poor’ people though they would not use that descriptor for
themselves. They are among the worlds best stewards and conservationists,
and unfortunately for them are often under the oppressive force of wealthy
western efforts which destroy their culture and their resources. I
personally do not want to be a part of a community (Eg. Coral list) that
sanctions the kind of rhetoric expressed in Alina’s post. Alina, there is
some great literature I think you might consider reading to help you better
understand the forces behind environmental destruction.
Thanks all
Nicole

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 6:05 PM Christopher Hawkins via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:

>  Re: "... in Bangladesh, the very poor people in many countries cut down
> all the trees, kill off wildlife, overfish their local reefs, and have high
> levels of pollution because of concentrated human density."
> Yikes. A little harsh, in my opinion. Please remember there was an era in
> the U.S. during which we chopped most everything that grew, believed people
> were incapable of fishing out a stock (i.e., cod), dammed as many rivers
> and streams as we came across, bulldozed mountaintops, and generally
> extirpated anything that growled at us. And we certainly did not have the
> population density or poverty levels while we were doing it than found in
> parts of Bangladesh. So, what excuse did we have?
> It took us a long time to progress through that era, and portions of it
> stubbornly hold on. But I guess we are somehow better than they are...
> Chris
> p.s. I wish I had more room for optimism. Most societies are reactionary,
> and don't/won't deal with problems large and small until they are forced to
> make the hard choices. We call that a "social trap." But change takes
> energy and many animals seems to be wired to conserve it rather than look
> for reasons to spend it. Similarly, I have seen too much misplaced effort
> in my career when it comes to saving/conserving/managing reefs. It's far
> easier for us to single out this or that user group, make some rules and
> draw some imaginary lines in the water and pat ourselves on the back. Far
> harder to fund the enforcement of those rules, make change in the
> socio-political arena, and work with ranchers and other private landowners
> to restore large swaths of upland.
>
>
>
>
>     On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 02:45:34 AM HST, Alina Szmant via
> Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
>  Hi Mike:
>
> I am very familiar with the social justice take on over population, and
> while yes, most of us 1st worlders consume more stuff per day than a very
> poor person in Bangladesh, the very poor people in many countries cut down
> all the trees, kill off wildlife, overfish their local reefs, and have high
> levels of pollution because of concentrated human density. So it is all of
> us, each in our own way contributing to the problem. And as global
> population increases, so does famine, armed conflict, rates of poverty and
> destruction of the environment. The immigration issues can be linked back
> to human populations being over the carrying capacity of the regions the
> people are fleeing... The rate at which environmental deterioration has
> accelerated follows the human population curve. Soon there will be nothing
> worthwhile left to save.
>
> I don't wish to debate this any further with you. The facts are there for
> anyone who wants to open their eyes to see them. Or keep them shut if that
> makes you feel better.
>
> Best,
>
> Alina
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> CISME Instruments LLC
> 210 Braxlo Lane,
> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> cell: 910-200-3913
> Website:  www.cisme-instruments.com
>
>
> **********************************************************
> Videos:  CISME Promotional Video 5:43 min
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAYeR9qX71A&t=6s
> CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa4SqS7yC08
> CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch   4:03 min  https://youtu.be/QCo3oixsDVA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Risk, Michael <riskmj at mcmaster.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:18 PM
> To: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com>;
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: RE: [Coral-List] FW: On a positive note But actually...
>
> Hi Alina.
>
> While I agree in principle with your position, might I just modify it a
> bit?
>
> The problem isn't too many people, it's too many Americans. And Canadians
> and Australians.
>
> Take the position of Bangladesh, which is a very perilous one indeed: that
> country will essentially disappear, perhaps in 50 years, as sea levels
> rise. Thirty Bangladeshis produce the CO2 of one American (or Canadian-I am
> not picking on you).
>
> There are suggestions that the global population will start to decline
> soon, which would be excellent for many reasons (not the least of which
> will be: climate change will mean a lot less food, including the loss of
> protein from reefs). To me, the problem boils down to: how do we convince
> people in the rich West to curtail their lifestyles in order to save the
> lives of people they have never met?
>
> Frankly, recent events (including some in your country and mine) are not
> encouraging. And I will let someone else discuss the evil that organised
> religion has done in this regard.
>
> Mike
> ________________________________________
> From: Coral-List [coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov] on behalf of
> Alina Szmant via Coral-List [coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov]
> Sent: June 26, 2019 10:51 AM
> To: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: [Coral-List] FW:  On a positive note But actually...
>
> Hi Steve:
>
> I agree that we all want to be hopeful, but my concern is that too many
> good people see climate change only as a consequence of fossil fuel use,
> and ignore the ultimate cause of climate change, TOO MANY HUMANS, for the
> loss of coral reefs, loss of biodiversity all over the world (land animals
> and plants are in far worse shape that marine ones). That is because there
> is this ostrich response (stick your head in a hole in the ground) to the
> ELEPHANT in the room: human overpopulation. It is HUMANS who not only burn
> fossil fuels for all the various uses we can't live without, but  also: we
> deforest the land for all sorts of human uses (cooking fuel, agriculture,
> all types of commercial development) and deforestation is just as major a
> contributor to climate change, loss of habitat and biodiversity, and
> coastal pollution affecting coral reefs as fossil fuel burning;  we
> over-fish which is directly related to number of humans wanting to catch
> fish for their own consumption or to sell for income, and which affects
> ecosystem dynamics on coral reefs as well as all marine ecosystems and
> through loss of predators and herbivores, coral health. So when we focus
> only on renewable energy and reducing CO2 emissions from burning fossil
> fuels we are ignoring the ultimate cause of all of this. It scares the
> bejeebers out of me when I read in the magazines from major environmental
> organizations an acceptance that we will have 9 Billion or 10 Billion
> people on Earth by 2050 or 2100. Why aren't TNC, The Ocean Conservancy,
> Environmental Defense, Conservation International, Sierra Club, Audubon, to
> name just a few,  raising this flag at the top of their messaging? There
> are only a few organizations like Population Connection (great
> organization, check out their website, yellow dot video (
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khFjdmp9sZk) that make this their mission
> to raise awareness and to connect the dots between human overpopulation,
> human misery and conflict, poverty, loss of habitat and
> wilderness/wildlife, etc.
>
> We can't handle the 7.5 Billion people on Earth now, some poor some
> wealthy but everyone having a minimal daily need for resources,  with all
> of the food animals humans raise and their environmental impact. The idea
> that new technology is going to save us from ourselves is fake news to use
> a current term. We haven't been able to keep up over the past 4 decades and
> no reason to believe that is going to change any time soon. So while I
> personally do what I can do reduce my own carbon footprint and be as
> environmentally conscience as possible, I do not feel optimistic in any way
> that things will be just peachy and all right by 2050. I won't be alive
> then, so luckily I won't have to experience the sad state of things many of
> us are predicting to be inevitable.
>
> Sorry to get back onto my old soap-box so soon after rejoining Coral-List
> but it IS the major crisis of today, and basically ignored by most as too
> intractable an issue, which it will continue to be as long as we continue
> to ignore it.
>
> Alina
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> CISME Instruments LLC
> 210 Braxlo Lane,
> Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> cell: 910-200-3913
> Website:  www.cisme-instruments.com
>
>
> **********************************************************
> Videos:  CISME Promotional Video 5:43 min
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAYeR9qX71A&t=6s
> CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa4SqS7yC08
> CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch  4:03 min  https://youtu.be/QCo3oixsDVA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> On Behalf Of
> Steve Mussman via Coral-List
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:31 PM
> To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: [Coral-List] On a positive note
>
> I'd like to draw your attention to an article that appeared recently in
> Alert Diver, the magazine of Divers Alert Network (DAN):
> http://www.alertdiver.com/Reef-Futures .
> In it, the publisher and editors have broken new ground (for the US scuba
> diving industry)  in clearly articulating the dire problem that
> anthropogenic climate changes holds for the planet's coral reefs; even
> going so far as to proclaim that "The science and associated consequences
> of anthropogenic climate change are undeniable when examined without
> preconceived notions" and . . . that "The greatest risk would be to do
> nothing about carbon (CO2) dioxide emissions. Immediate and aggressive
> action on climate change is paramount for the long-term survival of
> reefs".  The article goes on to acknowledge the significance of the
> contribution made by many of you in the coral science community who for
> years have dedicated your careers to saving coral reefs as well as the
> inspiration that you have provided to the new generation of up and coming
> young coral scientists. As one who has been a persistent critic of the U.S.
> scuba diving industry's inaction on this issue, this is welcomed news
> indeed. This may sound pollyannish, but let's hope that this proclamation
> signals the beginning of a real movement to reform the scuba diving
> industry, educate the diving public and ultimately help turn the tide and
> brighten the future for the world's coral reefs.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPad
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-- 
Nicole L. Crane
Faculty, Cabrillo College
Natural and Applied Sciences
www.cabrillo.edu/~ncrane

Senior Conservation Scientist, Project co-lead
One People One Reef
onepeopleonereef.ucsc.edu