[Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
Douglas Fenner
douglasfennertassi at gmail.com
Fri Nov 6 22:43:09 UTC 2020
That's simple. It does not meet the definition of a "reef." It does not
reach anywhere near the surface. I realize that people commonly refer to
such cold water "bioherms" as "reefs." Modern dictionaries are
"descriptive" not "proscriptive." So they report what people say, not what
they "should say" (which depends in part on who decides what "should"
happen). If the modern dictionary process is used, the "reef" is whatever
people use the term for. Certainly there is some similarity between deep
cold water bioherms and shallow, warm water coral reefs. But the original
meaning of "riff" (reef) is something hard and shallow that if you hit with
a boat does damage to the boat. Language changes over time. But
scientists try to be more specific and accurate and use words in ways
different from the general public.
There are no language police, and unlike for species names, no agreed
on system for defining names. So anyone can use any word any way they
want, and if listeners get the wrong idea, that's a problem for those
speakers and listeners. They may well not get the wrong idea. Meantime,
anyone who wants to can debate how they wish.
I note that mesophotic corals also do not get near the surface, and
those studying those carefully talk about "mesophotic coral ecosystems" NOT
mesophotic reefs. I believe geologists would refer to these deep coral
water constructions as "bioherms" not "reefs." I've argued before that we
should distinguish coral reefs, which are geological structures and not
themselves alive, and the coral reef ecosystems of living organisms on, in,
and around the geological structure and which produce the geological
structures. But people can, and will, do as they wish. I think
standardized nomenclature can assist accurate communication, which is
helpful.
I also note that the popular press often refers to these deep cold
water bioherms as being "diverse." My impression is that most such
bioherms are constructed each by a single coral species, so the coral
diversity is vastly lower than almost all shallow tropical coral reefs. I
would be surprised if the other organisms associated with such bioherms are
as diverse as they are on tropical coral reefs. I think the journalists
assume they are diverse like shallow tropical coral reefs, I suspect they
are not. Perhaps someone could shed light on that.
Cheers, Doug
On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM Gregory Boland via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Dear Kosynin,
>
> I would be interested to hear your opinion regarding your prior mention
> that "there are no deep-water coral reefs" in consideration of a deep-water
> Lophelia habitat that was studies during a BOEM/NOAA OER-funded study in
> the Gulf of Mexico called Lophelia II. One spectacular site was named
> Robert's Reef after the LSU professor who is also an author on the paper I
> will be referencing. BOEM provided supplemental funding to do a number of
> deep piston cores on the pinnacles of this feature (I'll refrain from
> calling it a reef). One core of over 50 ft found continuous Lophelia
> fragments to the bottom of the core representing growth back at least
> 300,000 years using associated fossils etc. There were periods of no-growth
> related to low sea stands (temperature related issues rather than water
> depth). Just curious what part of the definition of a coral reef this
> deep-water coral habitat does not meet.
>
> newspaper summary:
> https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_43d1fd7a-1677-5a10-acfe-702895176119.html
>
> Paper (abstract):
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063717303916
>
> Lophelia II BOEM final report:
>
> https://espis.boem.gov/final%20reports/5522.pdf
>
>
> The coral reef definition is certainly complicated (and sometimes
> political) with one extreme that was pushed during some attempts to get the
> Coral Reef Conservation Act reauthorized that merely required "skeletal
> remains" of coral to define a "coral reef" and not even mentioning it had
> to be underwater allowing something like the walls of the Alamo to be
> described as a coral reef. The State of Florida currently has a similar
> definition where no living reef-building corals are required to be present
> to meet the definition of a "coral reef" in order to impose legal penalties
> for groundings etc.
>
> Thanks for any consideration,
>
> Greg Boland
> retired BOEM Biological Oceanographer
>
> ________________________________
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on behalf of
> Kosmynin, Vladimir via Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 4:19 AM
> To: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a
> skyscraper
>
> Doug,
>
> There is no simple answer to your last question: why some reefs able to
> “keep up” or even “catch up” with subsidence even, while others “give up”
> and become coral banks or just banks, even being in warm tropical waters.
> Water temperatures is just one of numerous factors controlling coral reef
> growth. Just a few of them below, far not all.
>
> Obviously, very important is the rate of subsidence, which would be a sum
> of glacio-eustatic and local vertical tectonic movement. In each of three
> Meltwater pulses (1A, 1B, 1C) which happened between 14600 yr ago and 7600
> yr ago, the sea level rise was 4.5-5.0 m/100 yr (4.5-5.0 mm/yr) with total
> 27.5 m rise in 7000 yr (~4 mm/yr or ~40 m/1000yr). If at the same time
> happened tectonic subsidence, coral buildup hardly can keep up with rapid
> subsidence, because average coral reef buildup in Holocene was 5-10 m/1000
> yr. That is why we do not know reefs that would keep up growing from the
> time of the beginning of deglaciation (~22-20Ky ago), from about 100-130 m
> below present level. By far we know only one case, it is in French
> Polynesia, where accumulated over 100 m of coral reef in the time of
> deglaciation (if I am not mistaken, it is in Moorea, work of Pirazzoli,
> Montaggioni and coauthors). Later, passing 7000 years ago, the rate of
> glacio-eustatic sea level rise considerably slowed down, and that time most
> of Holocene coral reefs could grow keeping up with sea level rise or
> catching up from relatively shallow antecedent relief.
>
> Great role in the rate of reef-building/reef growth would play local set
> of reef-building coral species. For example, if one Atlantic reef for some
> reasons doesn’t have Acropora palmata, it wouldn’t be able to grow
> vertically as fast as a reef with A. palmata, because few other main
> reef-building species in the Atlantic do not have the same rate of growth
> as A. palmata. Somebody would say that A. cervicornis can grow as fast if
> not faster. Yes, but it would be able to build a reef only in unique
> situation where A. cervicornis bush is not periodically turning to rubble.
> Rear example of such reefs built by A. cervicornis (and kept up with rising
> sea level) would be recently described by Vasil Zlatarski unusual type of
> reefs in muddy waters of Gulf of Guacanayabo in Cuba.
>
> Of the other factors, very critical are antecedent relief (i.e. subaerial
> relief occupied by reef-building corals during sea level rise/submergence)
> and sedimentary environment (in worst case scenario the excess of sediments
> can “shut down” reef-building completely). Submergence of gentle slopes
> with plenty of sediments would obviously restrict coral reef formation. On
> the other end, very steep slops would not be able to hold large coral
> accumulation and, I guess, you have seen sections of such slopes being
> grown to overhangs, and saw some of them ultimately collapsed.
>
> Water clarity is a factor; as you know well, photosynthesis is very
> important for the growth reef-building corals.
>
> In a short, there are several factors, and even in single atoll, one can
> find one side successfully “keeping up”, while the other is getting
> submerged.
>
> We have number of great publications by coral reef geologists like Ian
> McIntyre, Gene Shinn, Barbara Lidz, Edward Purdy, Paolo Pirazzoli, Lucien
> Montaggioni, and many others (apologies for not giving all names) who
> described how reefs were growing in last glacial cycle.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir Kosmynin
>
>
> From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 3:15 PM
> To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> Cc: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com>;
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> Subject: Re: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> All good points, Alina and Vladimir. I would add that guyots and other
> seamounts are abundant particularly in the Pacific. You can easily see
> loads of them in Google Earth. For those who would like to explore more,
> I'd recommend the "Seamount catalogue" https://earthref.org/SC/<
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1LUde8_GTVxYlw8acBdULug9YUXyhubTAvzrv0iQLznIXJfP8I28gap9cFevgYQ6dE8T-kYkEjiVqXhYhrl3scCfSEb15JZnXBf5444t30kU98Yr4YyEfwBbpciVWtBnSwL90MhZEXwM1ueC3ZRR9o4wV-GNEHn7dxxOB22Xqse9svg3CSYL6zXG_7X15Qg2fjyf5GBpISCV4mSVGzXmWM6U3EcDUTVMNSHP8Yqy1KIPdDI2qwXP9zs3aiFK7Ck5treVq5D3MSPV4isibUOr-5FzsTxkxlhZ9oLV-YEdAJHFquxMoJw1DODlDIg2AU_vKHCHPZeYjfDMRfydvB5fPWw/https%3A%2F%2Fearthref.org%2FSC%2F>
> You can get lots of info on seamounts there, and you will see that there is
> a whole list of recent discoveries of new seamounts, it is a steady
> stream. If memory serves, it includes some islands as well, probably just
> smaller islands. It should still be possible to get it to show you a
> contour map of each one, from which you may be able to see whether it has a
> flat top or not. See their note that you'll need to use "advanced
> search." One of the fun bits of info they provide is the volume of the
> seamount. Their volume is often amazingly large, usually over 100 cubic
> km, sometimes in the thousands.
> I'm suddenly remembering that not long ago there was a big fuss about
> the big announcement that a big portion of the ocean floor was being mapped
> for the first time. First time?? No, not by a long shot. Take a look at
> Google Earth and tell me the sea floor has not been mapped before. I'm old
> enough to remember when National Geographic first published world maps that
> included the sea floor, it was amazing. A long time ago, I don't remember
> when. So this new study, surely is mapping some areas in more detail, with
> higher resolution than they were mapped before. As seems to be so often
> now, the headlines were greatly exaggerated. If you zoom in on Google
> Earth, you will see areas of the sea floor that have much higher resolution
> than other areas. That's great, but it's not mapping them for the first
> time. In some areas the high resolution is in a straight band. That's the
> track of a ship that was recording higher resolution multibeam sonar, I'd
> bet. No ship can cover the whole ocean, but when a ship that has the sonar
> is cruising to some location, they leave it on to gather data as they go.
> Hence the straight bands of high resolution.
> The Darwin Point that Grigg named, is where the growth rate of the
> reef no longer is able to keep up with the rate of subsidence, which in the
> Hawaiian-Emperor chain is because the chain is being carried slowly into
> higher latitudes with colder water, slowing coral growth. If there is a
> chain somewhere that is not being carried into colder water, it would be
> predicted not to have a Darwin Point.
> I agree with Valdimir that a flat top does not necessarily mean it
> was a coral reef, and it may not be obvious from a topographic map whether
> it was a coral reef on top or not. Also, interesting, it looks to me like
> there are plenty of guyots in the tropics, where cold surface water could
> not be the reason that they were unable to keep up with subsidence, since
> near surface water is warm. They would be called "give up reefs" instead
> of "keep up reefs" or "catch up reefs." So some couldn't keep up in waters
> of the same temperature as others that did keep up. Why?
> Cheers, Doug
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 6:46 AM Kosmynin, Vladimir <
> Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov<mailto:Vladimir.Kosmynin at floridadep.gov>>
> wrote:
> Hi Alina, great to hear from you.
>
> The bank that was discovered in the area of GBR would be a guyot only if
> its volcanic nature is confirmed, which looks doubtful to me according to
> tectonic position, but I can be wrong.
> Guyots are not necessarily drowned reefs, as you correctly mentioned.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vladimir
>
> Vladimir N. Kosmynin, Ph.D.
> Environmental Consultant
> Beaches, Inlets and Ports Program
> Division of Water Resource Management
> Florida Department of Environmental Protection
> 2600 Blair Stone Road, MS 3590 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400
> e-mail: vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> vladimir.kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>
> Tel: (850)245-7622
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alina Szmant <alina at cisme-instruments.com<mailto:
> alina at cisme-instruments.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2020 12:34 PM
> To: Kosmynin, Vladimir <Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov<mailto:
> Vladimir.Kosmynin at FloridaDEP.gov>>; douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>; coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: RE: Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> I have to check this article again for details, but it appears that the
> newly found structure is technically a guyot, a flat top submerged
> seamount. Guyots are usually volcanoes that are emergent when formed, then
> get flattened as they subside below sea level by wave action and subaerial
> erosion. If this happens in the tropics in an area favorable to coral reef
> formation, you basically get the Darwinian atoll formation sequence. If
> after the atoll stage the structure continues to subside, it becomes a
> drowned reef like the many found to the NW of the Hawaiian Island chain.
> Rick Grigg wrote extensively about all this and came up with the Darwin
> Point as the latitude and depth at which coral reef growth can't keep up
> with subsidence (or sea level rise). I am guessing that is the origin of
> this newly found structure. I am pretty sure there are hundreds more out
> there that humans haven't come across yet.
>
> In my opinion, they are just drowned reefs that will suffer the same fate
> of any deeper reef as sea level and ocean temperatures continue to rise.
> Again, a lot of hype by the press and people with little background in
> coral reef geology (or marine geology in general). New seamount but not
> novel or promising or different.
>
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> On Behalf Of Kosmynin, Vladimir
> via Coral-List
> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:34 PM
> To: douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> Cc: coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: [Coral-List] Newly discovered reef (?) is taller than a skyscraper
>
> Doug,
> The news about 500 m tall "coral reef" runs everywhere in press/internet.
> It is very interesting discovery, and I spent evening watching nice video
> recorded from ROV. Just one comment, which would be in the stream of this
> long conversation about origin of reefs and atolls, importance of
> geomorphology, and appropriate use of terminology. Discovered relief
> feature is not a reef; it is coral bank. The depth of 42 m on top of this
> relief feature tells us that this is not a reef by definition. Somebody
> would ask, if this bank used to be a coral reef in the past. Yes, when
> sea level was around 42-45 m below present, it was a reef. Was it coral
> reef or not can be answered by drilling and confirming if it was built or
> at least capped on top by substantial (meters) growth of reef-building
> corals. The origin of this relief feature would need to be studied to
> state, for example, this this is submerged coral reef, and what it was
> growing on.
>
> I think it was already mentioned, that there is no "deep-water" coral
> reefs, or "mesophotic coral reefs" - these are all coral banks, by
> definition.
> I guess excessive use of term "coral reef" caused by the same desire to
> attract attention, as was mentioned about "Darwin was wrong" article.
>
> Using the occasion, I would like to appreciate all who participated in the
> discussion about origin of atolls and Darwin's work, and especially David
> Blakeway for his advice to young scientists to read more old publications
> (which is applicable also to quite a few of not so young scientists as
> well).
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir Kosmynin
>
>
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:17:15 -1100
>
> From: Douglas Fenner <douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com><mailto:douglasfennertassi at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>>>
>
> To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov><mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> <mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>>
>
> Subject: [Coral-List] new reef is tall
>
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>
> Newly discovered reef is taller than a skyscraper
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kXYQikWQhsyy0Sbmq0_RER8yO-BGlw3-EpmG1L2oKVZO1qi60t2iaVmIqITZod8eSG9i7r2tCrZCiH6eTTA-xk6uDqYZnrDSKWhTJA8q4AwNDiqceqnlP-guNTN3jCbglgat3LWhMAOIiLalthKFfT3dnZ9jYV8aaZf7yivMseiOZSYhzC835XTl4R5-d1odJAx_lRx9kjPV9ssO8zvMdhRwkRQUVGLg9GsFymuVPsnmK-tUSXBIh149Rd7pE6GYn6bo8oX_MsuG861TnguOaz-hoIdXNkHMpljvw1-CIpZfno0-1nfj8gCHlvB9I5g6aWng0Ta_8uZi4PHZDsMesTLGKl3r63z9AmqHO8xifKQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencemag.org%2Fnews%2F2020%2F10%2Fnewly-discovered-reef-taller-skyscraper
>
>
>
> Australian scientists discover 500 meter tall coral reef in the Great
> Barrier Reef- first to be discovered in over 120 years
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VEVZyzWv9953hsgqb0Hx8fSWcBcQGUSZSO-Bmooh92b9p_mtJqyb-UfA4jwqiTKe_QfnwSyBnJ6vBeDL8YrnnZ3RnTkKr2cKgaBerVE3WoVXd65zBSTzPS_jzOppudd76VDllVO2mQ2I_rhQ__GWe0hzNy2pWNVVERMAaCo8QO-oe_jcu4WxMw_8CE7Lbh2b_vIuXsW1In4m0dQc-a_28wkGFgNRIdRdoKu_uHZJYoitm4Mg10VUGyMZtcGTkSY9PHjn4_voBCu-T4Hlyo4SwBYYKit1kAproU7WqmkSNi_EMNrmhvAOw41ju4HvaHxaYRKOSWhfRk7oRFOXhVUTDg/https%3A%2F%2Fschmidtocean.org%2Faustralian-scientists-discover-500-meter-tall-coral-reef-in-the-great-barrier-reef-first-to-be-discovered-in-over-120-years%2F
>
>
>
> Cheers, Doug
>
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