[Coral-List] Fwd: corals can eat their zooxanthellae

Sat Sep 9 21:34:38 UTC 2023

"At first we thought that digital would last forever,  but it turns out
it's much less durable than a book, which can last for centuries."
        - Paolo Gallui, Director, Museo Galileo, Florence, New York Times,
December 22, 2018

Dear colleagues,

I hope Cora-List will soon post ICRS Officers' consideration regarding the
appeal to create a summarizing contemporary Treatise on Corals. The task of
preserving and using the existing coral knowledge also requires a
conservation and availability of the classic coral publications.  If, for
example, it is difficult for somebody to find the pertinent literature
about symbiosis, a relatively very recent coral subject, what about other
aspects of coral knowledge, which appeared published in a period of more
than 500 years?  Where are they treasured?

The participants of the 11th International Coral Reef Symposium, Ft.
Lauderdale, 2008, had the chance to see and touch the extraordinary
collection of antiquarian books on corals and coral reefs of Dr. James
Porter. His collection offers not only a unique source of knowledge, but
also unsurpassed coral and reef aesthetics.  The words in the beginning of
this post are the opening words of Jim's catalogue of his Professional
Library on Corals & Coral Reefs (2019).

I hope it would be a wonderful collegial effort to start posting in
Coral-List information about existing libraries on rare books of Listers'
interest.

Cheers,

Vassil

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Vassil Zlatarski <vzlatarski at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae
To: Coral-List Subscribers <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>, Dennis Hubbard
<dhubbard at oberlin.edu>, Phillip Dustan <phil.dustan at gmail.com>, Austin
Bowden-Kerby <abowdenkerby at gmail.com>, Mike Risk <riskmj at mcmaster.ca>, <
alina at sisme-instruments.com>

Dear colleagues,

The words of Dennis and the other experienced colleagues for the crisis in
usage of the published coral and reef knowledge are sobering.  There is no
excuse for scientific negligence.  At the same time let's consider the
present reality.

In the 1950s, I became a university trained paleontologist. That time the
exploration for oil and gas urgeded study of fossil reefs and their
constructors, the corals. I was advised to study fossil corals because the
foreign languages I was studying at school were German and Russian.  Soon,
discovering the Paris Coral School of James Alloiteau I had to start using
the French language.  It was a pre-xerox time, and the only way to obtain
existing literature, in the conditions of severe geopolitical isolation,
was to write a postal letter to the authors for reprints. Soon the work on
ancient corals provoked my interest in living corals and reefs and this
took me to English and Spanish languages. It wasn't an easy time, however
there were a considerably smaller number of publications and aspects on
coral knowledge.  And, we had summarizing tools, the Treatises written by
giants of knowledge. With the years, the studies and facets on investigated
subjects grew exponentially.  Nevertheless, today there is no updated
summarizing publication, not only for taxonomy but for all disciplines of
coral knowledge.

This task requires the efforts of our leading experts in all coral
disciplines. It would be a serious effort of teamwork. The Coral-List is a
remarkable place for exchanging colegial ideas. So, being 87 years young,
retired more than two decades and trying to be useful by doing something at
home, I take the liberty here to appeal to our International Coral Reef
Society to consider this work-necessity.

Cheers,

Vassil

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 7:37 AM Dennis Hubbard via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:

> Thanks to Mark, Alina and others for this conversation. I would remind
> folks that the "TOP-END" pubs that we all aspire to publish in (e,g.,
> Science, Nature) severely limit the number of references as well as how
> "old" references can be. I have commented on more than one occasion that
> I'm just waiting to see a paper on evolution that doesn't/can't cite
> Darwin.
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 11:09 AM Mark Tupper via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Dear List,
> >
> > In response to Alina's observation that many young scientists are unaware
> > of the older literature, I think it is true (it is certainly true in fish
> > ecology), but not surprising. When publishing, most students are taught
> to
> > cite the most recent literature, often at the expense of the pioneering
> > research. Moreover, the number of new publications in coral reef science
> > being generated each year is orders of magnitude higher now than when my
> > career started in the 1980s. When I was an early career researcher, it
> was
> > quite feasible to read every new paper in my specific field of interest.
> > That is no longer the case.
> >
> > I agree 100% with Austin that Coral-List includes many managers,
> > practitioners, and students who are simply not able to read the mountains
> > of prior research that exists. It is fine to correct them when they make
> a
> > mistake, but let's show them more patience and courtesy when doing so.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Sun, 27 Aug 2023, 17:56 Austin Bowden-Kerby via Coral-List, <
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Alina,
> > >
> > > The fact is that many on the list are educators, field workers,
> managers,
> > > and technicians, should be understood.  Also, many of us have families
> > and
> > > full time jobs, with very little free time.  Even for the professional
> > > scientists, it is impossible to keep up with all aspects of our field:
> > > cellular biology, biochemistry, immunology and coral diseases, genetics
> > of
> > > host and symbionts, ecology, taxonomy, geology, etc.   So while I
> highly
> > > respect all of your contributions to the field, and I understand that
> > this
> > > judgemental/ belittling/ competitive trait is a cultural thing dominant
> > in
> > > the USA and in some ways expected, others in the field provide better
> > > models for what I think we should be striving for, as far as respect
> for
> > > mental and professional diversity, with the aim of working together
> with
> > > more unity of purpose. Many just think what you wrote- few write it, so
> > > thanks for being honest.
> > >
> > > Yor post provides a perfect talking point for something that has
> troubled
> > > me for decades.  It is an example of why so many are insecure about
> > asking
> > > questions on the list and in conferences etc- it is for fear of being
> > > judged, belittled, and ridiculed.  My academic experience was frankly
> > > horrific- not because of the course material, which was amazing, but
> > > because I was often judged for being mentally divergent and being a
> > > Baha'i.  Your reply brings all of that back. But to the young people
> out
> > > there who feel intimidated or somehow different- it is my mental
> > divergence
> > > (dyslexia and mild autism) but that and persistence have been my
> greatest
> > > strengths over the long run, because it has allowed me to connect the
> > dots
> > > of the various facts that are not well linked by others or in the
> > > literature. My being so impacted by the unkindness of our academic
> > culture
> > > also forced me into much kinder and more respectful cultures like what
> I
> > > experienced in Puerto Rico for my PhD (Muchas Gracias mis amigos!), and
> > > then for my life's work in the Pacific Islands (Vinka, Korba, Talofa,
> > > Sulang, Kinisou, Kalagan, Tankyu).
> > >
> > > Attitudes in academia do matter, especially when dished out those well
> > > accomplished and highly respected. It is sad that sensitive people and
> > > those from gentler cultures are faced with a system that is starkly
> > > judgemental and unkind, on top of being filled with immense pressures.
> > > While some may be able to deal with this, some of us can't, but it does
> > not
> > > have to be this way.  How many amazing talents have dropped out of
> > academia
> > > due to this?  We have so much that needs to be transformed in our
> world,
> > > not just the energy production and economic systems, but also social
> and
> > > educational systems.
> > >
> > > We need all hands on deck, we need everyone reading this to become part
> > of
> > > the solution. Never think you are lesser than others, nor exalt
> ourselves
> > > over others.  And if you are mentally divergent- I advise you to stop
> > > trying to become like others and to find your super powers!  The world
> > > needs superheroes right now!
> > >
> > > Loving regards to all,
> > >
> > > Austin
> > >
> > >
> > > Austin Bowden-Kerby, PhD
> > > Corals for Conservation
> > > P.O. Box 4649 Samabula, Fiji Islands
> > > https://www.corals4conservation.org
> > > Publication on C4C's coral-focused climate change adaptation
> strategies:
> > > https://www.mdpi.com/2673-1924/4/1/2/pdf
> > > Film on our "Reefs of Hope" coral restoration for climate change
> > adaptation
> > > strategies:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0lqKciXAA
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-coral-bleaching/
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-coral-bleaching/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 1:31 PM Alina Szmant <
> > alina at cisme-instruments.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is a shame that so many people who have an interest in coral reefs
> > > > haven't either had the opportunity to take a higher level coral reef
> > > > ecology and physiology course, or in lieu of this, taken the time to
> > > > actually read the scientific literature. I was of the impression that
> > > when
> > > > Coral-List was started by Jim Hendee it was oriented to coral reef
> > > > scientists communicating with each other about substantive coral reef
> > > > topics. It was open to all which is a good way for those with little
> > > > background to learn from scientists with more experience. Over the
> > > years, I
> > > > find that this scenario has changed and it is now more a forum for
> > > > afficionados, but not necessarily ones with any background in the
> > science
> > > > of corals and coral reefs. I have shelves of books about all kinds of
> > > > geological, ecological and biological aspects of corals that I use to
> > > brush
> > > > up on topics, and there have been excellent overview books over the
> > > decades
> > > > for those who take the time to read them. e.g. Ecosystems of the
> World
> > > Vol
> > > > 25 Coral Reefs (1990). Then there is https://scholar.google.com for
> > more
> > > > specific literature searches.
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry, but I will not apologize for being shocked that in 2023
> > > people
> > > > on this list would be so uninformed about coral biology to not know
> > what
> > > is
> > > > basically general knowledge that corals digest some of their
> > > zooxanthellae.
> > > > As Rob pointed out, the first paper on this was by Boschma back in
> > 1925.
> > > He
> > > > also did cool experiments showing how he could infect aposymbiotic
> > corals
> > > > with zooxanthellae by feeding them bits of zooxanthellate coral
> tissue
> > > > mixed up with crab meat. He did a lot of his research with the cold
> > water
> > > > coral Astrangia danae (now poculata). I used to spend hours and hours
> > > > reading the literature to catch up with what had been learned over
> the
> > > > decades, even centuries, before I came along. Apparently that doesn't
> > > > happen anymore: everyone is too busy reinventing the wheel. I was at
> > the
> > > > Bremen ISRS and did come away with the impression that oh so many
> young
> > > and
> > > > intelligent researchers are underprepared for tackling major research
> > > > topics because of lack of knowledge with which to reason with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > *************************************************************************
> > > > Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> > > > CISME Instruments LLC
> > > > 210 Braxlo Lane,
> > > > Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> > > > AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> > > > cell: 910-200-3913
> > > > EMAIL: alina at cisme-instruments.com
> > > >
> > > > CISME IS NOW SOLD BY QUBIT SYSTEMS; https://qubitbiology.com/cisme/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > **********************************************************
> > > > Videos:  CISME Video 5:43 min
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAYeR9qX71A&t=6s
> > > > CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa4SqS7yC08
> > > > CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch   4:03 min
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12sAV8oUluE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> On Behalf
> Of
> > > > Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 7:04 PM
> > > > To: Coral-List Subscribers <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>; Austin
> > > > Bowden-Kerby <abowdenkerby at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae
> > > >
> > > > You are again right, Austin, and let's start discussing the best way
> to
> > > > overcome this situation.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't  a contemporary TREATISE ON CORALS a long time awaited?
> > > >
> > > > The "most recent" coral treatises were written by great geologists T.
> > W.
> > > > Vaughan,  J. W. Wells (in English), and  J. Alloteau (in French).
> They
> > > > were published in the middle of last century and offered
> predominantly
> > > > paleontological knowledge of that time.  The treatise by J.-P.
> > Chevalier
> > > > appeared posthumously in 1987, in Traité de Zoologie, offering also
> > > > considerable information on living corals.  Unjustly, being published
> > in
> > > > French it received very limited use.
> > > >
> > > > The project for two volumes dedicated to Scleractinia in the series
> > > > T*reatise on Invertebrate Paleontology* started in the beginning of
> > this
> > > > century ...
> > > >
> > > > It would be great to succeed in realizing an efficient neontological
> > > > project for the Scleractinia treatise.  Coral-List is a great place
> to
> > > > discuss it, and what opportunity with the existing Series* Coral
> Reefs
> > of
> > > > the World?  *
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Vassil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 4:27 PM Austin Bowden-Kerby via Coral-List <
> > > > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Cool Doug- and something I too was unaware of, even if it was
> > > > > previously known.  : )
> > > > >
> > > > > Many key findings and information in technical areas such as
> > > > > biochemistry, genetics etc, does not get translated into the
> > > > > general/public knowledge of coral reefs, or into a form whereby it
> > can
> > > > > be easily assimilated by university students and workers in the
> > field,
> > > > > who until recently had poor access to publications, especially to
> > > > > those that are not mainstream to our field.  Is there a simple
> > summary
> > > > > I can read somewhere?  I am constantly playing catch up.
> > > > >
> > > > > I never understood the specific energy and nutrient transfer
> > > > > mechanisms of the symbiosis, as it was not taught when I was a
> > > > > graduate student, and somehow I missed it subsequently.  I always
> > > > > wondered if the algae generously and altruistically leaked out
> sugars
> > > > > and proteins for the host to use, as that is what the public
> > > > > information seems to imply, or if the host had to digest the algae
> to
> > > > > get them?  Do any of these papers tell us how and where they digest
> > > > > the algae, does the algae have to be expelled into the
> gastrovascular
> > > > > cavity or can it happen intracellularly?  If intracellular
> digestion
> > > > occurs, then how to get rid of the wastes?
> > > > >
> > > > > And another question, how do the algae leak out and get shared with
> > > > > incoming juvenile corals? As the algae are flagellated and can
> swim,
> > > > > how do they get out to swim away?
> > > > >
> > > > > And lastly, to Alina, opioids are no excuse for publicly shaming
> > > > > someone and being rude.  It is no wonder that so many of our
> younger
> > > > > scientists and those more sensitive are so terrified of posting on
> > the
> > > > > Coral List.  I was for years, but I got over it, as science is
> > failing
> > > > us at this critical
> > > > > point in history - our house is on fire!   We know so much about a
> > > system
> > > > > that may soon be gone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Austin
> > > > >
> > > > > Austin Bowden-Kerby, PhD
> > > > > Corals for Conservation
> > > > > P.O. Box 4649 Samabula, Fiji Islands
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.corals4conservation.org
> > > > > Publication on C4C's coral-focused climate change adaptation
> > > strategies:
> > > > > https://www.mdpi.com/2673-1924/4/1/2/pdf
> > > > > Film on our "Reefs of Hope" coral restoration for climate change
> > > > > adaptation
> > > > > strategies:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0lqKciXAA
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-co
> > > > > ral-bleaching/
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-co
> > > > > ral-bleaching/
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 1:58 AM Alina Szmant via Coral-List <
> > > > > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I know that I am on opiods due to my recent surgery, but this
> > > > > > message makes me feel that I must be living in an alternative
> > > > > > universe that is informationally separated from previous century.
> > We
> > > > > > knew that corals can digest and assimilate their zooxanthellae
> > since
> > > > > > Muscatine, Trench,  Yonge and other researchers work many decades
> > > > > > ago. So your message makes we wonder if people simply just don't
> > > > > > bother to read the literature,  or younger researchers are caught
> > up
> > > > > > in the "Breaking News" mindset.  I haven't looked at the papers
> > yet,
> > > > > > but my guess is that the new work is
> > > > > just
> > > > > > adding details to a fact and process that has been long known.
> So
> > > > > > maybe just modify the messaging, such as "new information about
> the
> > > > > > harvesting
> > > > > of
> > > > > > zooxanthellae by their anthozoan hosts" would be more
> appropriate.
> > > > > > Nice
> > > > > to
> > > > > > kearn new details about how nature works, but the sensationalism
> > > > > > should left for cable news coverage of plane crashes and
> celebrity
> > > > arrests.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alina Szmant
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Alina M. Szmant,  CEO
> > > > > > CISME Instruments LLC
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------- Original message --------
> > > > > > From: Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
> > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > > > > > Date: 8/24/23 11:06 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > > > > To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > > > > > Subject: [Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like hard-working farmers, corals cultivate and eat their
> resident
> > > > > > algae
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > https://www.science.org/content/article/hard-working-farmers-corals-cu
> > > > > ltivate-and-eat-their-resident-algae
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Corals have algal friends for dinner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02593-7
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note author contact
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reef-building corals farm and feed on their photosynthetic
> > symbionts
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06442-5
> > > > > >
> > > > > > open-access
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It sounded like from the popular accounts that the corals only
> did
> > > > > > that when the water they were in had zero nutrients in it, they
> > > > > > didn't do it
> > > > > in
> > > > > > low-nutrient water that is typical of tropical reefs in
> > oligotrophic
> > > > > > waters.  That's what it sounded like at least.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers, Doug
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Douglas Fenner
> > > > > > Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor NOAA Fisheries Service
> Pacific
> > > > > > Islands Regional Office Honolulu
> > > > > > and:
> > > > > > Coral Reef Consulting
> > > > > > PO Box 997390
> > > > > > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799-6298  USA
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One recent study estimates over 61,000 people died from heat
> during
> > > > > > Europe's record-breaking summer last year.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > https://www.yahoo.com/news/record-breaking-heat-bakes-us-014459083.h
> > > > > > tml
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1 million Florida buildings will be overrun by sea-level rise,
> new
> > > > > > study shows, at a cost of $261-624 BILLION
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-million-florida-buildings-overrun-0912033
> > > > > 40.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scientists size up human predatory footprint Humans are the
> > ultimate
> > > > > > predators, trapping, hunting, or otherwise exploiting 15,000
> > species
> > > > > > of vertebrates—300 times more species than jaguars and 113 times
> > > > > > more than great white sharks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > https://www.science.org/content/article/news-glance-muscular-dystrophy
> > > > > -therapy-lab-grown-chicken-and-humans-toll-wildlife
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Coral-List mailing list
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> > > > > >
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> > > >
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>
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
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