[Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae

Sat Sep 2 12:10:08 UTC 2023

Thanks to Mark, Alina and others for this conversation. I would remind
folks that the "TOP-END" pubs that we all aspire to publish in (e,g.,
Science, Nature) severely limit the number of references as well as how
"old" references can be. I have commented on more than one occasion that
I'm just waiting to see a paper on evolution that doesn't/can't cite Darwin.

Best,

Denny

On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 11:09 AM Mark Tupper via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> In response to Alina's observation that many young scientists are unaware
> of the older literature, I think it is true (it is certainly true in fish
> ecology), but not surprising. When publishing, most students are taught to
> cite the most recent literature, often at the expense of the pioneering
> research. Moreover, the number of new publications in coral reef science
> being generated each year is orders of magnitude higher now than when my
> career started in the 1980s. When I was an early career researcher, it was
> quite feasible to read every new paper in my specific field of interest.
> That is no longer the case.
>
> I agree 100% with Austin that Coral-List includes many managers,
> practitioners, and students who are simply not able to read the mountains
> of prior research that exists. It is fine to correct them when they make a
> mistake, but let's show them more patience and courtesy when doing so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2023, 17:56 Austin Bowden-Kerby via Coral-List, <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Dear Alina,
> >
> > The fact is that many on the list are educators, field workers, managers,
> > and technicians, should be understood.  Also, many of us have families
> and
> > full time jobs, with very little free time.  Even for the professional
> > scientists, it is impossible to keep up with all aspects of our field:
> > cellular biology, biochemistry, immunology and coral diseases, genetics
> of
> > host and symbionts, ecology, taxonomy, geology, etc.   So while I highly
> > respect all of your contributions to the field, and I understand that
> this
> > judgemental/ belittling/ competitive trait is a cultural thing dominant
> in
> > the USA and in some ways expected, others in the field provide better
> > models for what I think we should be striving for, as far as respect for
> > mental and professional diversity, with the aim of working together with
> > more unity of purpose. Many just think what you wrote- few write it, so
> > thanks for being honest.
> >
> > Yor post provides a perfect talking point for something that has troubled
> > me for decades.  It is an example of why so many are insecure about
> asking
> > questions on the list and in conferences etc- it is for fear of being
> > judged, belittled, and ridiculed.  My academic experience was frankly
> > horrific- not because of the course material, which was amazing, but
> > because I was often judged for being mentally divergent and being a
> > Baha'i.  Your reply brings all of that back. But to the young people out
> > there who feel intimidated or somehow different- it is my mental
> divergence
> > (dyslexia and mild autism) but that and persistence have been my greatest
> > strengths over the long run, because it has allowed me to connect the
> dots
> > of the various facts that are not well linked by others or in the
> > literature. My being so impacted by the unkindness of our academic
> culture
> > also forced me into much kinder and more respectful cultures like what I
> > experienced in Puerto Rico for my PhD (Muchas Gracias mis amigos!), and
> > then for my life's work in the Pacific Islands (Vinka, Korba, Talofa,
> > Sulang, Kinisou, Kalagan, Tankyu).
> >
> > Attitudes in academia do matter, especially when dished out those well
> > accomplished and highly respected. It is sad that sensitive people and
> > those from gentler cultures are faced with a system that is starkly
> > judgemental and unkind, on top of being filled with immense pressures.
> > While some may be able to deal with this, some of us can't, but it does
> not
> > have to be this way.  How many amazing talents have dropped out of
> academia
> > due to this?  We have so much that needs to be transformed in our world,
> > not just the energy production and economic systems, but also social and
> > educational systems.
> >
> > We need all hands on deck, we need everyone reading this to become part
> of
> > the solution. Never think you are lesser than others, nor exalt ourselves
> > over others.  And if you are mentally divergent- I advise you to stop
> > trying to become like others and to find your super powers!  The world
> > needs superheroes right now!
> >
> > Loving regards to all,
> >
> > Austin
> >
> >
> > Austin Bowden-Kerby, PhD
> > Corals for Conservation
> > P.O. Box 4649 Samabula, Fiji Islands
> > https://www.corals4conservation.org
> > Publication on C4C's coral-focused climate change adaptation strategies:
> > https://www.mdpi.com/2673-1924/4/1/2/pdf
> > Film on our "Reefs of Hope" coral restoration for climate change
> adaptation
> > strategies:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0lqKciXAA
> >
> >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-coral-bleaching/
> > <
> >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-coral-bleaching/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 1:31 PM Alina Szmant <
> alina at cisme-instruments.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is a shame that so many people who have an interest in coral reefs
> > > haven't either had the opportunity to take a higher level coral reef
> > > ecology and physiology course, or in lieu of this, taken the time to
> > > actually read the scientific literature. I was of the impression that
> > when
> > > Coral-List was started by Jim Hendee it was oriented to coral reef
> > > scientists communicating with each other about substantive coral reef
> > > topics. It was open to all which is a good way for those with little
> > > background to learn from scientists with more experience. Over the
> > years, I
> > > find that this scenario has changed and it is now more a forum for
> > > afficionados, but not necessarily ones with any background in the
> science
> > > of corals and coral reefs. I have shelves of books about all kinds of
> > > geological, ecological and biological aspects of corals that I use to
> > brush
> > > up on topics, and there have been excellent overview books over the
> > decades
> > > for those who take the time to read them. e.g. Ecosystems of the World
> > Vol
> > > 25 Coral Reefs (1990). Then there is https://scholar.google.com for
> more
> > > specific literature searches.
> > >
> > > I am sorry, but I will not apologize for being shocked that in 2023
> > people
> > > on this list would be so uninformed about coral biology to not know
> what
> > is
> > > basically general knowledge that corals digest some of their
> > zooxanthellae.
> > > As Rob pointed out, the first paper on this was by Boschma back in
> 1925.
> > He
> > > also did cool experiments showing how he could infect aposymbiotic
> corals
> > > with zooxanthellae by feeding them bits of zooxanthellate coral tissue
> > > mixed up with crab meat. He did a lot of his research with the cold
> water
> > > coral Astrangia danae (now poculata). I used to spend hours and hours
> > > reading the literature to catch up with what had been learned over the
> > > decades, even centuries, before I came along. Apparently that doesn't
> > > happen anymore: everyone is too busy reinventing the wheel. I was at
> the
> > > Bremen ISRS and did come away with the impression that oh so many young
> > and
> > > intelligent researchers are underprepared for tackling major research
> > > topics because of lack of knowledge with which to reason with.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> *************************************************************************
> > > Dr. Alina M. Szmant, CEO
> > > CISME Instruments LLC
> > > 210 Braxlo Lane,
> > > Wilmington NC 28409 USA
> > > AAUS Scientific Diving Lifetime Achievement Awardee
> > > cell: 910-200-3913
> > > EMAIL: alina at cisme-instruments.com
> > >
> > > CISME IS NOW SOLD BY QUBIT SYSTEMS; https://qubitbiology.com/cisme/
> > >
> > >
> > > **********************************************************
> > > Videos:  CISME Video 5:43 min
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAYeR9qX71A&t=6s
> > > CISME Short version Demo Video 3:00 min
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa4SqS7yC08
> > > CISME Cucalorus 10x10 Sketch   4:03 min
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12sAV8oUluE
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> On Behalf Of
> > > Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List
> > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 7:04 PM
> > > To: Coral-List Subscribers <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>; Austin
> > > Bowden-Kerby <abowdenkerby at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae
> > >
> > > You are again right, Austin, and let's start discussing the best way to
> > > overcome this situation.
> > >
> > > Isn't  a contemporary TREATISE ON CORALS a long time awaited?
> > >
> > > The "most recent" coral treatises were written by great geologists T.
> W.
> > > Vaughan,  J. W. Wells (in English), and  J. Alloteau (in French).  They
> > > were published in the middle of last century and offered predominantly
> > > paleontological knowledge of that time.  The treatise by J.-P.
> Chevalier
> > > appeared posthumously in 1987, in Traité de Zoologie, offering also
> > > considerable information on living corals.  Unjustly, being published
> in
> > > French it received very limited use.
> > >
> > > The project for two volumes dedicated to Scleractinia in the series
> > > T*reatise on Invertebrate Paleontology* started in the beginning of
> this
> > > century ...
> > >
> > > It would be great to succeed in realizing an efficient neontological
> > > project for the Scleractinia treatise.  Coral-List is a great place to
> > > discuss it, and what opportunity with the existing Series* Coral Reefs
> of
> > > the World?  *
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Vassil
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 4:27 PM Austin Bowden-Kerby via Coral-List <
> > > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cool Doug- and something I too was unaware of, even if it was
> > > > previously known.  : )
> > > >
> > > > Many key findings and information in technical areas such as
> > > > biochemistry, genetics etc, does not get translated into the
> > > > general/public knowledge of coral reefs, or into a form whereby it
> can
> > > > be easily assimilated by university students and workers in the
> field,
> > > > who until recently had poor access to publications, especially to
> > > > those that are not mainstream to our field.  Is there a simple
> summary
> > > > I can read somewhere?  I am constantly playing catch up.
> > > >
> > > > I never understood the specific energy and nutrient transfer
> > > > mechanisms of the symbiosis, as it was not taught when I was a
> > > > graduate student, and somehow I missed it subsequently.  I always
> > > > wondered if the algae generously and altruistically leaked out sugars
> > > > and proteins for the host to use, as that is what the public
> > > > information seems to imply, or if the host had to digest the algae to
> > > > get them?  Do any of these papers tell us how and where they digest
> > > > the algae, does the algae have to be expelled into the gastrovascular
> > > > cavity or can it happen intracellularly?  If intracellular digestion
> > > occurs, then how to get rid of the wastes?
> > > >
> > > > And another question, how do the algae leak out and get shared with
> > > > incoming juvenile corals? As the algae are flagellated and can swim,
> > > > how do they get out to swim away?
> > > >
> > > > And lastly, to Alina, opioids are no excuse for publicly shaming
> > > > someone and being rude.  It is no wonder that so many of our younger
> > > > scientists and those more sensitive are so terrified of posting on
> the
> > > > Coral List.  I was for years, but I got over it, as science is
> failing
> > > us at this critical
> > > > point in history - our house is on fire!   We know so much about a
> > system
> > > > that may soon be gone.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Austin
> > > >
> > > > Austin Bowden-Kerby, PhD
> > > > Corals for Conservation
> > > > P.O. Box 4649 Samabula, Fiji Islands
> > > >
> > > > https://www.corals4conservation.org
> > > > Publication on C4C's coral-focused climate change adaptation
> > strategies:
> > > > https://www.mdpi.com/2673-1924/4/1/2/pdf
> > > > Film on our "Reefs of Hope" coral restoration for climate change
> > > > adaptation
> > > > strategies:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0lqKciXAA
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-co
> > > > ral-bleaching/
> > > > <
> > > >
> https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/emergency-response-to-massive-co
> > > > ral-bleaching/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 1:58 AM Alina Szmant via Coral-List <
> > > > coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I know that I am on opiods due to my recent surgery, but this
> > > > > message makes me feel that I must be living in an alternative
> > > > > universe that is informationally separated from previous century.
> We
> > > > > knew that corals can digest and assimilate their zooxanthellae
> since
> > > > > Muscatine, Trench,  Yonge and other researchers work many decades
> > > > > ago. So your message makes we wonder if people simply just don't
> > > > > bother to read the literature,  or younger researchers are caught
> up
> > > > > in the "Breaking News" mindset.  I haven't looked at the papers
> yet,
> > > > > but my guess is that the new work is
> > > > just
> > > > > adding details to a fact and process that has been long known.  So
> > > > > maybe just modify the messaging, such as "new information about the
> > > > > harvesting
> > > > of
> > > > > zooxanthellae by their anthozoan hosts" would be more appropriate.
> > > > > Nice
> > > > to
> > > > > kearn new details about how nature works, but the sensationalism
> > > > > should left for cable news coverage of plane crashes and celebrity
> > > arrests.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alina Szmant
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Alina M. Szmant,  CEO
> > > > > CISME Instruments LLC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------- Original message --------
> > > > > From: Douglas Fenner via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > > > > Date: 8/24/23 11:06 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > > > To: coral list <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> > > > > Subject: [Coral-List] corals can eat their zooxanthellae
> > > > >
> > > > > Like hard-working farmers, corals cultivate and eat their resident
> > > > > algae
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> https://www.science.org/content/article/hard-working-farmers-corals-cu
> > > > ltivate-and-eat-their-resident-algae
> > > > >
> > > > > Corals have algal friends for dinner
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02593-7
> > > > >
> > > > > Note author contact
> > > > >
> > > > > Reef-building corals farm and feed on their photosynthetic
> symbionts
> > > > >
> > > > >  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06442-5
> > > > >
> > > > > open-access
> > > > >
> > > > > It sounded like from the popular accounts that the corals only did
> > > > > that when the water they were in had zero nutrients in it, they
> > > > > didn't do it
> > > > in
> > > > > low-nutrient water that is typical of tropical reefs in
> oligotrophic
> > > > > waters.  That's what it sounded like at least.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers, Doug
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Douglas Fenner
> > > > > Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor NOAA Fisheries Service Pacific
> > > > > Islands Regional Office Honolulu
> > > > > and:
> > > > > Coral Reef Consulting
> > > > > PO Box 997390
> > > > > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799-6298  USA
> > > > >
> > > > > One recent study estimates over 61,000 people died from heat during
> > > > > Europe's record-breaking summer last year.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/record-breaking-heat-bakes-us-014459083.h
> > > > > tml
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 million Florida buildings will be overrun by sea-level rise, new
> > > > > study shows, at a cost of $261-624 BILLION
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-million-florida-buildings-overrun-0912033
> > > > 40.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Scientists size up human predatory footprint Humans are the
> ultimate
> > > > > predators, trapping, hunting, or otherwise exploiting 15,000
> species
> > > > > of vertebrates—300 times more species than jaguars and 113 times
> > > > > more than great white sharks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> https://www.science.org/content/article/news-glance-muscular-dystrophy
> > > > -therapy-lab-grown-chicken-and-humans-toll-wildlife
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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-- 
Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
Oberlin OH 44074
(440) 935-4014

* "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
 Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"