[Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast

Sun Jan 21 01:18:39 UTC 2024

Hi Denny

I found your note interesting. And I believe  it wasn’t a meeting in
Bermuda but the SEPM Quaternary Reef Workshop I ran in  the mid- 2000s
where both you and Conrad gave talks.

Reading this article and manuscript was an insult to the memory of both
Conrad Neumann and Chuck Messing and all that they did throughout their
careers on these Lophelia ecosystems.  Conrad Neumann gave a talk in a
session I led and actually predicted this discovery.   In fact, both he and
Chuck Messing would say “each time we survey a new area we find more and
more deep-water coral habitat”.  Back in the mid 2000s they had already
identified an area of deep-water lithoherms that stretched further than the
entire length of the Florida Reef Tract.

  Now with new and better deep-water remote sensing technology and hundreds
of additional submersible and ROV dives they’ve extended it up to South
Carolina - while it is a very significant discovery made by a team of
dedicated scientists - the article and media release by NOAA just drips
with hyperbole and self adulation.

While they reference a chapter Chuck Messing wrote for the book “ Coral
Reefs of the USA” I found the background scholarship poor.

I wonder what John Reed thinks about this “new discovery” as he too was one
of the early pioneers on these deep-water Lophelia corals.

Nice job, they just forgot on whose shoulders they were standing.

Bill

Btw - Here are a few references on the topic

Biozonation of deep-water lithoherms and associated hardgrounds in the
northeastern Straits of Florida <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3514994>
CG *Messing*, AC *Neumann*, JC Lang - Palaios, 1990 - JSTOR
… We recognize three faunal zones on these mounds: a *Coral* Zone (Lophelia
prolifera) restricted to the upcurrent end; a Zoanthid Zone (?Gerardia

*Deep*-*water coral reefs *of the *United States*
<https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6847-8_21>
CG *Messing*, JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, SD
Brooke, SW Ross
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=tLmofCkAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> - *Coral
Reefs *of the *USA*, 2008 - Springer
… pertusa lithoherms and mounds reported by *Neumann*et al. (1977), …
patches of *deep**sea* *corals* are often smaller than at other sites. The
bottom is

Habitat characterization, distribution, and areal extent of *deep*-*sea
coral *ecosystems off Florida, southeastern *USA*
<https://bioone.org/journals/caribbean-journal-of-science/volume-47/issue-1/cjos.v47i1.a3/Habitat-Characterization-Distribution-and-Areal-Extent-of-Deep-sea-Coral/10.18475/cjos.v47i1.a3.short>
JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, C
*Messing*, BK Walker
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, S
Brooke… - Caribbean Journal of …, 2013 - BioOne
… dated mud mounds but are also capped with *coral*habitat (*Neumann* et
al. 1977). The … revealing coverage with the densest growth of *Lophelia*
*coral* thickets that we have found in
Comparison of *deep*-*water coral reefs *and lithoherms off southeastern
*USA* <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1016593018389>

JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> -
Hydrobiologia, 2002 - Springer
… *deep*-*water* *Lophelia* *reefs* off the southeastern *United**States*…
of *coral*, mollusks, crinoids, echinoids, and sponges (*Neumann* … that
*deep**water* *coral* *reefs* are accumulations of *coral* debris

Habitat and fauna of *deep*-*water Lophelia *pertusa *coral reefs *off the
southeastern *US*: Blake Plateau, Straits of Florida, and Gulf of Mexico
<https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/2006/00000078/00000002/art00009>
JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, DC
Weaver, SA Pomponi
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bL3lR1QAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> -
Bulletin of Marine Science, 2006 - ingentaconnect.com
… ,b), whereas lithoherms are high-relief, lithified carbonate mounds,
rather than unconsolidated sediment mounds, and also may be covered with
thickets of live *coral* (*Neumann* et al

Regionalization of benthic hard-bottom communities across the Pourtalès
Terrace, Florida
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063721000534>
BK Walker
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, C
*Messing*, J Ash, S Brooke… - *Deep Sea *Research …, 2021 - Elsevier
… of this habitat in the continental *US*). These corresponded to … The
geographic extent of *deep*-*water**reefs* in this region is … The
*Lophelia* Mound Community reported in this study lies on

Lithoherms on the Florida–Hatteras slope
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322700000037>
CK Paull
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Htff9QQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, AC
*Neumann*, BA Am Ende, W Ussler Iii
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uJ9nYoYAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>… -
Marine Geology, 2000 - Elsevier
… Thickets of living ahermatypic *coral* coat the crest and up-stream
flanks of these topographic features. Living deep-water *coral* have modern
14 C ages (700±80 year bp) and trap older

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:19 PM Dennis Hubbard via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:

> Hi Vassil:
>
> Thanks. If my old memory serves me right, Conrad Neumann described deep=ses
> reefs off the coast of Florida based on several submersible dives. I'm not
> sure I could find the reference as I've been out of the game for so long,
> However, I fondly remember a meeting on Bermuda where someone referred to
> what sound like these reefs and Conrad, who was sitting next to me, leaned
> over an murmured , "did that in 1977'. If I'm right, this is yet another
> predictable of the unfortunate stresses for researchers (especially younger
> ones) to report only the most recent references in prestigious journals
> like Nature and Science. More than once, in one of my snarkier moods, I'd
> commented that I was just waiting for some young grad student stating that
> s/he discovered evolution because that were unaware od Dsrwin's work. i
> understand that there are mechanisms to create ancillary references that
> will be listed outside the main reference list, but I am pessimistic about
> everyone tsking the time amd effort to go there.
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> Denny
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 10:59 AM Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> >  https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
>  Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list