[Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast
Risk, Michael
riskmj at mcmaster.ca
Mon Jan 22 16:05:21 UTC 2024
Good day, all.
I was going to let this slide without comment, because, after all, do
we need yet another demonstration that people don't read the older
literature if that might obscure the brilliance of their latest
discovery? But I thought some perspective might be appropriate.
We have, of course, known about deep-water corals for a very long time.
People have been dredging up Lophelia forever. There seems not to have
been a great deal of interest in them until the mid-1990's. We managed
to get a climate record from deep-water corals from off the coast of
Newfoundland, which is relevant to-day. We found that during the onset
of the Younger Dryas, the turnaround from full-on deglaciation to a
widespread cooling took less than 4 years. This was driven by a
meltwater event that basically shut down/diverted the Gulf Stream.
(Smith et al, 1997, Nature v 386).
It is worth mentioning that the corals we worked on were part of a much
larger haul, dredged up by the geophysicists. The corals languished in
storage for years at the Bedford Institute until some bright spark
said, Chuck 'em out. Several bucketloads were trashed, until someone
working in Dale Buckley's lab contacted me.
Word leaked out about our results even before the Nature paper, and we
were invited to a workshop at Lamont. That certainly got things
buzzing, with Wally Broeker calling deep corals "the New Climate
Archive."
We were then invited to attend a NOAA-sponsored workshop in Ireland, on
the use of corals in climate work.
In short (wrap this up, Mike!): No, that discovery wasn't especially
momentous, and it would be sporting to accept that much of the interest
in deep-water corals emanates from work done by your neighbours to the
north.
Mike
__________________________________________________________________
From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on behalf of
William Precht via Coral-List <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2024 8:18 PM
To: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
Cc: Coral-List Subscribers <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral
reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast
Caution: External email.
Hi Denny
I found your note interesting. And I believe it wasn't a meeting in
Bermuda but the SEPM Quaternary Reef Workshop I ran in the mid- 2000s
where both you and Conrad gave talks.
Reading this article and manuscript was an insult to the memory of both
Conrad Neumann and Chuck Messing and all that they did throughout their
careers on these Lophelia ecosystems. Conrad Neumann gave a talk in a
session I led and actually predicted this discovery. In fact, both he
and
Chuck Messing would say "each time we survey a new area we find more
and
more deep-water coral habitat". Back in the mid 2000s they had already
identified an area of deep-water lithoherms that stretched further than
the
entire length of the Florida Reef Tract.
Now with new and better deep-water remote sensing technology and
hundreds
of additional submersible and ROV dives they've extended it up to South
Carolina - while it is a very significant discovery made by a team of
dedicated scientists - the article and media release by NOAA just drips
with hyperbole and self adulation.
While they reference a chapter Chuck Messing wrote for the book " Coral
Reefs of the USA" I found the background scholarship poor.
I wonder what John Reed thinks about this "new discovery" as he too was
one
of the early pioneers on these deep-water Lophelia corals.
Nice job, they just forgot on whose shoulders they were standing.
Bill
Btw - Here are a few references on the topic
Biozonation of deep-water lithoherms and associated hardgrounds in the
northeastern Straits of Florida
<[1]https://www.jstor.org/stable/3514994>
CG *Messing*, AC *Neumann*, JC Lang - Palaios, 1990 - JSTOR
... We recognize three faunal zones on these mounds: a *Coral* Zone
(Lophelia
prolifera) restricted to the upcurrent end; a Zoanthid Zone (?Gerardia
*Deep*-*water coral reefs *of the *United States*
<[2]https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6847-8_21>
CG *Messing*, JK Reed
<[3]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
>, SD
Brooke, SW Ross
<[4]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=tLmofCkAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
> - *Coral
Reefs *of the *USA*, 2008 - Springer
... pertusa lithoherms and mounds reported by *Neumann*et al. (1977),
...
patches of *deep**sea* *corals* are often smaller than at other sites.
The
bottom is
Habitat characterization, distribution, and areal extent of *deep*-*sea
coral *ecosystems off Florida, southeastern *USA*
<[5]https://bioone.org/journals/caribbean-journal-of-science/volume-47/
issue-1/cjos.v47i1.a3/Habitat-Characterization-Distribution-and-Areal-E
xtent-of-Deep-sea-Coral/10.18475/cjos.v47i1.a3.short>
JK Reed
<[6]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
>, C
*Messing*, BK Walker
<[7]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
>, S
Brooke... - Caribbean Journal of ..., 2013 - BioOne
... dated mud mounds but are also capped with *coral*habitat (*Neumann*
et
al. 1977). The ... revealing coverage with the densest growth of
*Lophelia*
*coral* thickets that we have found in
Comparison of *deep*-*water coral reefs *and lithoherms off
southeastern
*USA* <[8]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1016593018389>
JK Reed
<[9]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
> -
Hydrobiologia, 2002 - Springer
... *deep*-*water* *Lophelia* *reefs* off the southeastern
*United**States*...
of *coral*, mollusks, crinoids, echinoids, and sponges (*Neumann* ...
that
*deep**water* *coral* *reefs* are accumulations of *coral* debris
Habitat and fauna of *deep*-*water Lophelia *pertusa *coral reefs *off
the
southeastern *US*: Blake Plateau, Straits of Florida, and Gulf of
Mexico
<[10]https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/2006/000000
78/00000002/art00009>
JK Reed
<[11]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sr
a>, DC
Weaver, SA Pomponi
<[12]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bL3lR1QAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sr
a> -
Bulletin of Marine Science, 2006 - ingentaconnect.com
... ,b), whereas lithoherms are high-relief, lithified carbonate
mounds,
rather than unconsolidated sediment mounds, and also may be covered
with
thickets of live *coral* (*Neumann* et al
Regionalization of benthic hard-bottom communities across the Pourtales
Terrace, Florida
<[13]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096706372100053
4>
BK Walker
<[14]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sr
a>, C
*Messing*, J Ash, S Brooke... - *Deep Sea *Research ..., 2021 -
Elsevier
... of this habitat in the continental *US*). These corresponded to ...
The
geographic extent of *deep*-*water**reefs* in this region is ... The
*Lophelia* Mound Community reported in this study lies on
Lithoherms on the Florida-Hatteras slope
<[15]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002532270000003
7>
CK Paull
<[16]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Htff9QQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sr
a>, AC
*Neumann*, BA Am Ende, W Ussler Iii
<[17]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uJ9nYoYAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sr
a>... -
Marine Geology, 2000 - Elsevier
... Thickets of living ahermatypic *coral* coat the crest and up-stream
flanks of these topographic features. Living deep-water *coral* have
modern
14 C ages (700+-80 year bp) and trap older
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:19PM Dennis Hubbard via Coral-List <
coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Vassil:
>
> Thanks. If my old memory serves me right, Conrad Neumann described
deep=ses
> reefs off the coast of Florida based on several submersible dives.
I'm not
> sure I could find the reference as I've been out of the game for so
long,
> However, I fondly remember a meeting on Bermuda where someone
referred to
> what sound like these reefs and Conrad, who was sitting next to me,
leaned
> over an murmured , "did that in 1977'. If I'm right, this is yet
another
> predictable of the unfortunate stresses for researchers (especially
younger
> ones) to report only the most recent references in prestigious
journals
> like Nature and Science. More than once, in one of my snarkier moods,
I'd
> commented that I was just waiting for some young grad student stating
that
> s/he discovered evolution because that were unaware od Dsrwin's work.
i
> understand that there are mechanisms to create ancillary references
that
> will be listed outside the main reference list, but I am pessimistic
about
> everyone tsking the time amd effort to go there.
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> Denny
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 10:59AM Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> > [18]https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
> > _______________________________________________
> > Coral-List mailing list
> > Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> > [19]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
> Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
> _______________________________________________
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References
1. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3514994
2. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6847-8_21
3. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
4. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=tLmofCkAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
5. https://bioone.org/journals/caribbean-journal-of-science/volume-47/issue-1/cjos.v47i1.a3/Habitat-Characterization-Distribution-and-Areal-Extent-of-Deep-sea-Coral/10.18475/cjos.v47i1.a3.short
6. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
7. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
8. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1016593018389
9. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
10. https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/2006/00000078/00000002/art00009
11. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
12. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bL3lR1QAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
13. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063721000534
14. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
15. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322700000037
16. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Htff9QQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
17. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uJ9nYoYAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra
18. https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
19. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
20. https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
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