[Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast

Fri Jan 26 20:07:47 UTC 2024

MY EMAIL WAS HACKED FOR A FEW DAYS SO EMAILS I SENT OUT WERE NOT GOING THROUGH. SORRY TO BE A BIT LATER TO THIS PARTY, BUT I THINK MY POINTS ARE STILL RELEVANT AND ADD TO RECENT POSTS ABOUT THE LOPHELIA BANKS HAVING BEEN STUDIED FOR DECADES. IT'S GREAT THAT NEW TECHNOLOGY IS ALLOWING MORE DETAILED MAPPING, BUT ONLY NEWBIES DIDN'T KNOW THOSE REEFS WEREN'T THERE. IT'S ALL AVAILBALE, DOZENS OF PUBLICATIONS, UNDER A SCHOLAR GOOGLE SEARCH FOR LOPHELIA CORALS.

YOU SHOULD ADD STEVE ROSS TO THE LIST OF MANY NAMES WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE EXTENSIVE LOPHELIA BEDS FOR DECADES.

Thank you Bill, for once again pointing out the lack of 'old-fashioned' scholarship among younger scientists. I am sure this is not unique to the field of coral reef studies since friends in physical oceanography and other sciences complain about the same thing. Maybe humans can only master so much information, or the pressure of competition to succeed in academia limits how much effort today's scientists spend reading the literature that doesn't pop up in a quick Google Scholar search, but I think that younger generations of scientists are not being taught (like I was) how to research the literature and give credit where credit is due. Everything has to be BREAKING NEWS these days, when actually it's like the Europeans "discovering America"... the millions of indigenous Americans knew it was here...

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-----Original Message-----
From: Coral-List <coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> On Behalf Of William Precht via Coral-List
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2024 8:19 PM
To: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu<mailto:dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>>
Cc: Coral-List Subscribers <coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] The Guardian: Largest known deep-sea coral reef mapped off U.S. Atlantic coast

Hi Denny

I found your note interesting. And I believe  it wasn’t a meeting in Bermuda but the SEPM Quaternary Reef Workshop I ran in  the mid- 2000s where both you and Conrad gave talks.

Reading this article and manuscript was an insult to the memory of both Conrad Neumann and Chuck Messing and all that they did throughout their careers on these Lophelia ecosystems.  Conrad Neumann gave a talk in a
session I led and actually predicted this discovery.   In fact, both he and
Chuck Messing would say “each time we survey a new area we find more and more deep-water coral habitat”.  Back in the mid 2000s they had already identified an area of deep-water lithoherms that stretched further than the entire length of the Florida Reef Tract.

  Now with new and better deep-water remote sensing technology and hundreds of additional submersible and ROV dives they’ve extended it up to South Carolina - while it is a very significant discovery made by a team of dedicated scientists - the article and media release by NOAA just drips with hyperbole and self adulation.

While they reference a chapter Chuck Messing wrote for the book “ Coral Reefs of the USA” I found the background scholarship poor.

I wonder what John Reed thinks about this “new discovery” as he too was one of the early pioneers on these deep-water Lophelia corals.

Nice job, they just forgot on whose shoulders they were standing.

Bill

Btw - Here are a few references on the topic

Biozonation of deep-water lithoherms and associated hardgrounds in the northeastern Straits of Florida <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3514994>
CG *Messing*, AC *Neumann*, JC Lang - Palaios, 1990 - JSTOR … We recognize three faunal zones on these mounds: a *Coral* Zone (Lophelia
prolifera) restricted to the upcurrent end; a Zoanthid Zone (?Gerardia

*Deep*-*water coral reefs *of the *United States* <https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6847-8_21>
CG *Messing*, JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, SD Brooke, SW Ross <https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=tLmofCkAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> - *Coral Reefs *of the *USA*, 2008 - Springer … pertusa lithoherms and mounds reported by *Neumann*et al. (1977), … patches of *deep**sea* *corals* are often smaller than at other sites. The bottom is

Habitat characterization, distribution, and areal extent of *deep*-*sea coral *ecosystems off Florida, southeastern *USA* <https://bioone.org/journals/caribbean-journal-of-science/volume-47/issue-1/cjos.v47i1.a3/Habitat-Characterization-Distribution-and-Areal-Extent-of-Deep-sea-Coral/10.18475/cjos.v47i1.a3.short>
JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, C *Messing*, BK Walker <https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, S Brooke… - Caribbean Journal of …, 2013 - BioOne … dated mud mounds but are also capped with *coral*habitat (*Neumann* et al. 1977). The … revealing coverage with the densest growth of *Lophelia*
*coral* thickets that we have found in
Comparison of *deep*-*water coral reefs *and lithoherms off southeastern
*USA* <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1016593018389>

JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> - Hydrobiologia, 2002 - Springer … *deep*-*water* *Lophelia* *reefs* off the southeastern *United**States*… of *coral*, mollusks, crinoids, echinoids, and sponges (*Neumann* … that
*deep**water* *coral* *reefs* are accumulations of *coral* debris

Habitat and fauna of *deep*-*water Lophelia *pertusa *coral reefs *off the southeastern *US*: Blake Plateau, Straits of Florida, and Gulf of Mexico <https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/2006/00000078/00000002/art00009>
JK Reed
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bUgOIZsAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, DC Weaver, SA Pomponi <https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bL3lR1QAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra> - Bulletin of Marine Science, 2006 - ingentaconnect.com … ,b), whereas lithoherms are high-relief, lithified carbonate mounds, rather than unconsolidated sediment mounds, and also may be covered with thickets of live *coral* (*Neumann* et al

Regionalization of benthic hard-bottom communities across the Pourtalès Terrace, Florida <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967063721000534>
BK Walker
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=APjq4OQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, C *Messing*, J Ash, S Brooke… - *Deep Sea *Research …, 2021 - Elsevier … of this habitat in the continental *US*). These corresponded to … The geographic extent of *deep*-*water**reefs* in this region is … The
*Lophelia* Mound Community reported in this study lies on

Lithoherms on the Florida–Hatteras slope <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322700000037>
CK Paull
<https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Htff9QQAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>, AC *Neumann*, BA Am Ende, W Ussler Iii <https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=uJ9nYoYAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra>… - Marine Geology, 2000 - Elsevier … Thickets of living ahermatypic *coral* coat the crest and up-stream flanks of these topographic features. Living deep-water *coral* have modern
14 C ages (700±80 year bp) and trap older

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:19 PM Dennis Hubbard via Coral-List < coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> wrote:

> Hi Vassil:
>
> Thanks. If my old memory serves me right, Conrad Neumann described
> deep=ses reefs off the coast of Florida based on several submersible
> dives. I'm not sure I could find the reference as I've been out of the
> game for so long, However, I fondly remember a meeting on Bermuda
> where someone referred to what sound like these reefs and Conrad, who
> was sitting next to me, leaned over an murmured , "did that in 1977'.
> If I'm right, this is yet another predictable of the unfortunate
> stresses for researchers (especially younger
> ones) to report only the most recent references in prestigious
> journals like Nature and Science. More than once, in one of my
> snarkier moods, I'd commented that I was just waiting for some young
> grad student stating that s/he discovered evolution because that were
> unaware od Dsrwin's work. i understand that there are mechanisms to
> create ancillary references that will be listed outside the main
> reference list, but I am pessimistic about everyone tsking the time amd effort to go there.
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> Denny
>
> Best,
>
> Denny
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 10:59 AM Vassil Zlatarski via Coral-List <
> coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov<mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>> wrote:
>
> >  https://apple.news/ATXWpDb8AQwqdNlDnrQU3eQ
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
> Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
> Oberlin OH 44074
> (440) 935-4014
>
> * "When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"*
> Benjamin Stein: "*Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream*"
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