[Coral-List] new sponge climate record
Risk, Michael
riskmj at mcmaster.ca
Wed Feb 7 15:28:23 UTC 2024
Interesting observation, and I agree. We have spent far too much time
waffling about "framework." It's a good way to distinguish coral reefs
from piles of oyster shells, but tends to fall apart when looked at
closely.
I have an old paper on a (tiny) stromatoporoid reef on Manitoulin
Island. The critters themselves were about the size of a large
grapefruit, and about the same shape. We were looking at evidence of
transport, so started counted the ones that were upside-down vs
rightside-up.
50:50
Which led us to the conclusion that the ones in "life position" were
simply ones that had been rolled an even # of times, as opp to those
rolled an odd #. Framework?
__________________________________________________________________
From: Dennis Hubbard <dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 9:26 AM
To: Phillip Dustan <phil.dustan at gmail.com>
Cc: Risk, Michael <riskmj at mcmaster.ca>; coral list
<coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Coral-List] new sponge climate record
You don't often get email from dennis.hubbard at oberlin.edu. [1]Learn why
this is important
Caution: External email.
Phil:
Thanks for your historical commentl. One ooooold question on your use
of "framework. How specifically are you using this definition? In the
60s and 70s, we spent way too much time trying to convince ourselves
that a "reef": was a feature largely constructed from in-place corals..
As one who looked at "reefs" in core as much as biological entities we
swam over, it was pretty obvious that these were more "garbage piles"
held together by secondary biological and chemical "cements" than
purely biologically built, in-place features. Some have called
seawalls and breakwater "reefs" but I think those of us on the
listserve all agree that these are not what we are talking about on the
listserve.
Best,
Denny
On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 8:18AM Phillip Dustan via Coral-List
<[2]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Mike,
Tom Goreau discovered the "beasts" living in the depths of
Discovery Bay
in the 1960. He and Willard Hartman figured out what they were. Then
Tom
found them living in shallow caves at Pear Tree Bottom. Lynton Land
brought
Nekton to DBMT in 1972 and we found them to be major framework
builders to
around 300 ft.
In the 1970's I dove a site in Reading to the west of Montego Bay
where we
found them living in great profusion at 50-80 ft. They are very
slow
growing at 1 to 2 mm/yr; consequently their skeletons are in
equilibrium
with seawater. I have a pre-CITES collection if anyone is interested
in a
collaboration.
Phil
On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 7:28PM Risk, Michael via Coral-List <
[3]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> wrote:
> Yes, an excellent (although ultimately depressing) paper by
some very
> competent people.
>
> Some additional context here: for many years (centuries, even)
> geologists have been studying a mysterious group of critters
called
> stromatoporoids. They are worldwide in their distribution, and
confined
> (we thought!) to the Paleozoic. In some areas, especially in
the
> Devonian of Western Canada, they host significant reserves of
> petroleum.
>
> We were never sure what they were. Early workers thought they
were
> corals, or algae, or sponges-or, in one burst of brilliance,
forams.
> After a while we more or less settled on them being sponges,
although
> of a group unlike any we had seen. Until Judy Lang found and
described
> the ones living at some depths in caves off the north coast of
Jamaica.
>
> The paleontologists fell on this discovery with cries of
> delight-finally, stromatoporoids had a home! Sponges after all.
>
> They are not uncommon, in the Caribbean. I have collected them
at
> relatively shallow depths (10m) in caves on Grand Cayman. For a
while,
> I had a ginormous one in my collection-ginormous being a
relative term.
> It was about 15x10cm. At the time, neither the techniques nor
the money
> were available to work on it. Then the university decided to
emphasize
> other aspects, and took over my lab-that specimen now is
somewhere in a
> landfill.
>
> Kudos to the authors. This is great work.
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Coral-List <[4]coral-list-bounces at coral.aoml.noaa.gov> on
behalf of
> Douglas Fenner via Coral-List
<[5]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 3:29 AM
> To: coral list <[6]coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov>
> Subject: Re: [Coral-List] new sponge climate record
>
> Caution: External email.
> The sclerosponge quote comes from
> [1][7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge
> Cheers, Doug
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:27PM Douglas Fenner
> <[8]douglasfennertassi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Sea sponges keep climate records and the accounting is grim,
study
> shows
> >
> >
> >
>
[2][9]https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/sea-sponges-keep-
climat
>
e-records-and-the-accounting-is-grim-new-study-shows/ar-BB1hO8nw
> >
> > open-access
> >
> > Ocean warming and warning
> >
> > [3][10]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-023-01921-z
> >
> > Not open-access
> >
> > 300 years of sclerosponge thermometry shows global warming
has
> exceeded
> > 1.5 C
> >
> > [4][11]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-023-01919-7
> >
> > open-access. The sponges were collected in Puerto Rico at a
depth of
> > 31-91 m, so mesophotic (probably coral reef). Sclerosponges
have a
> massive
> > and hard calcium skeleton with a thin layer of living sponge
tissue
> on the
> > surface. They are mostly at mesophotic depths in the
Caribbean, in
> lower
> > light habitats if shallower. Not really common I would say.
I'm
> presuming
> > that they add to their external skeleton slowly. Most are
pretty
> small,
> > one species can be at least 10 cm diameter, others may be
smaller. I
> don't
> > think I've ever seen one in the Indo-Pacific, though they are
surely
> here.
> > My impression is not many species.
> >
> > Wikipedia says "
> > Sclerosponges[edit
> >
>
<[5][12]https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demosponge&action
=edit&s
> ection=2>
> > ]
> >
> > Sclerosponges were first proposed as a class of sponges,
> *Sclerospongiae*,
> > in 1970 by Hartman and Goreau.[16]
> >
<[6][13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-16>
However,
> it was
> > later found by Vacelet that sclerosponges occur in different
classes
> of
> > Porifera <[7][14]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porifera>.[17]
> >
<[8][15]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-17> That
means
> that
> > sclerosponges are not a closely related (taxonomic
> > <[9][16]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology)>)
group of
> sponges and
> > are considered to be a polyphyletic grouping and contained
within the
> > Demospongiae. Like bats
<[10][17]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat> and
> birds
> > <[11][18]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird> that
independently developed
> the
> > ability to fly, different sponges developed the ability to
build a
> > calcareous skeleton independently and at different times in
Earth's
> > history
>
<[12][19]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geological_history_of_Earth>.
> > Fossil sclerosponges are already known from the Cambrian
> > <[13][20]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian> period.[18]
> >
<[14][21]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-18>"
> > For more articles on related subjects, see:
> [15][22]https://www.nature.com/search
> >
> > Such as:
> >
> > Resistance to ocean acidification in coral reef taxa is not
gained by
> > acclimatization
> >
> > Coral resilience to ocean acidification and global warming
through pH
> > up-regulation
> >
> > A coralline alga gains tolerance to ocean acidification over
multiple
> > generations of exposure
> >
> > Cheers, Doug
> >
> > --
> > Douglas Fenner
> > Lynker Technologies, LLC, Contractor
> > NOAA Fisheries Service
> > Pacific Islands Regional Office
> > Honolulu
> > and:
> > Coral Reef Consulting
> > PO Box 997390
> > Pago Pago, American Samoa 96799-6298 USA
> >
> > Costanza, R. 2023. To build a better world, stop chasing
economic
> growth.
> > Nature 624: 519-521.
> [16][23]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-04029-8
> >
> > Fossil fuel air pollution kills 5 million people world-wide
per year
> >
> >
>
[17][24]https://www.yahoo.com/news/research-shows-disturbing-between
-millio
> ns-200000257.html
> >
> > World's richest 1% emit as much as 5 billion people
> >
[18][25]https://makerichpolluterspay.org/climate-equality-report/
> >
> > Huge expansion of fossil fuels planned, will be very
destructive
> >
> >
>
[19][26]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/08/insanity
-petros
> tates-planning-huge-expansion-of-fossil-fuels-says-un-report
> >
> > "without policy changes, the world will heat up enough by the
end of
> the
> > century that more than 2 billion people will live in
life-threatening
> hot
> > climates" Will you be in that area???
> >
> >
>
[20][27]https://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-sounding-alarm-dangero
us-prob
> lem-123000792.html
> >
> > World subsidies for fossil fuels reached an all-time high of
over $1
> > TRILLION in 2022, the last year for which data is available.
The
> subsidies
> > MUST end.
> >
> >
> >
>
[21][28]https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fossil-fue
l-subsi
> dies-must-end/
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> [29]Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> [22][30]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>
> References
>
> 1. [31]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge
> 2.
>
[32]https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/sea-sponges-keep-cl
imate-records-and-the-accounting-is-grim-new-study-shows/ar-BB1hO8nw
> 3. [33]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-023-01921-z
> 4. [34]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-023-01919-7
> 5.
>
[35]https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demosponge&action=edi
t§ion=2
> 6. [36]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-16
> 7. [37]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porifera>.[17
> 8. [38]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-17
> 9. [39]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology
> 10. [40]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat
> 11. [41]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird
> 12.
[42]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geological_history_of_Earth
> 13. [43]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian
> 14. [44]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosponge#cite_note-18
> 15. [45]https://www.nature.com/search
> 16. [46]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-04029-8
> 17.
>
[47]https://www.yahoo.com/news/research-shows-disturbing-between-mil
lions-200000257.html
> 18.
[48]https://makerichpolluterspay.org/climate-equality-report/
> 19.
>
[49]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/08/insanity-pet
rostates-planning-huge-expansion-of-fossil-fuels-says-un-report
> 20.
>
[50]https://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-sounding-alarm-dangerous-p
roblem-123000792.html
> 21.
>
[51]https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/fossil-fuel-su
bsidies-must-end/
> 22. [52]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
> _______________________________________________
> Coral-List mailing list
> [53]Coral-List at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
> [54]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
>
--
Phillip Dustan PhD
Charleston SC 29424
843-953-8086 office
843-224-3321 (mobile)
"When we try to pick out anything by itself
we find that it is bound fast by a thousand invisible cords
that cannot be broken, to everything in the universe. "
* John Muir 1869*
*A Swim Through TIme on Carysfort Reef*
[55]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCPJE7UE6sA
*Raja Ampat Sustainability Project video*
[56]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RR2SazW_VY&fbclid=IwAR09oZkEk8w
QkK6LN3XzVGPgAWSujACyUfe2Ist__nYxRRSkDE_jAYqkJ7A
*Bali Coral Bleaching 2016 video*
*[57]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxOfLTnPSUo
<[58]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxOfLTnPSUo>*
TEDx Charleston on saving coral reefs
[59]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwENBNrfKj4
Google Scholar Citations:
[60]https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=HCwfXZ0AAAAJ
_______________________________________________
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[62]https://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/mailman/listinfo/coral-list
--
Dennis Hubbard - Emeritus Professor: Dept of Geology-Oberlin College
Oberlin OH 44074
(440) 935-4014
"When you get on the wrong train.... every stop is the wrong stop"
Benjamin Stein: "Ludes, A Ballad of the Drug and the Dream"
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2. mailto:coral-list at coral.aoml.noaa.gov
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